D&D 5E More maneuvers at low level.

MortalPlague · Nov 6, 2012

As many others in the thread have said, I think there's something to be said for option overload. Gaining maneuvers over time is a great way to demonstrate expanding skill as a warrior, while still allowing players to become comfortable with their options as they get them. If a fighter got six or seven maneuvers to start with, you'd have option paralysis from the get go, and it would only get worse as it scaled.

I do think fighters should get parry at first level by default, however. I think that was an amazing thing to have in the last packet; it really made a fighter feel tough to kill without resorting to an untouchable AC or a ridiculous sum of hit points. Giving them deadly strike, parry, and one from their style would be plenty of options to start with, especially with them picking up one more at level 2.

bbjore · Nov 6, 2012

One of the key ways of making a PC fun, without making them more powerful, is to give them lateral options. Maneuvers are lateral options. It's a good idea to give a fighter multiple maneuvers at lvl 1 and let the wizard cast say 3 or 4 lvl 1 spells.

Mechanical choices that give you options for solving problems are one of the ways you make a PC feel special and different from another PC. It's alright to do so, and four choices are not overwhelming for anyone who can handle the rest of the game. The issues of more abilities at lvl 1 such as bloat or multiclassing are trivial to solve.

They talk about wanting to stretch the sweet spot of the game, one of the key ways to do that is to provide interesting tactical options for players at every level. Then 1st lvl, or even the first few levels aren't a hoop you try to get through as quickly as possible so you can have the character you want. They're something you want to slow down, savor, and enjoy.

Jeff Carlsen · Nov 7, 2012

I disagree with this. First level characters of all classes need to be simple. They need their defining abilities and nothing more. Level 1 is where a player gets used to the mechanics of his or her character. They gain more abilities gradually as they level up.

Level 2 isn't that far away.

ren1999 · Nov 7, 2012

As your DM, I would just like to stick to 3 powers(maneuvers, spells, prayers, feats, etc..) for new characters. This gives everybody a chance to practice the mechanics of the game without being overwhelmed. Also, 3 starting skills should be enough either from a background or from some kind of specialty set.

I would like to see no dashed dead levels. I want to see a reward for leveling up at every level. But too many spells and maneuvers at higher levels really made me angry when trying to conduct Pathfinder games. 4E was much better granting fewer powers.

fjw70 · Nov 7, 2012

Jeff Carlsen said:
I disagree with this. First level characters of all classes need to be simple. They need their defining abilities and nothing more. Level 1 is where a player gets used to the mechanics of his or her character. They gain more abilities gradually as they level up.

Level 2 isn't that far away.

This is a personal preference. Some people really like complex characters at all levels. That is why I think we need to have a range of complexity at all levels. No reason all 1st level characters need to be simple and no reason all 10th level characters need to be complex.

Timmoth · Nov 7, 2012

fjw70 said:
This is a personal preference. Some people really like complex characters at all levels. That is why I think we need to have a range of complexity at all levels. No reason all 1st level characters need to be simple and no reason all 10th level characters need to be complex.

Its not complexity its power. A character can improvise and invent thousands of complex maneuvers at 1st lvl. These maneuvers will be heavily penalized without an advantage except for their starting maneuvers.

bbjore · Nov 7, 2012

Jeff Carlsen said:
I disagree with this. First level characters of all classes need to be simple. They need their defining abilities and nothing more. Level 1 is where a player gets used to the mechanics of his or her character. They gain more abilities gradually as they level up.

Level 2 isn't that far away.

But when you talk about defining abilities, and maneuvers or spells are your defining abilities, not having any real choice of which to use isn't helping you learn the mechanics of your character. It's forcing you to spam the same option over and over. I'm not saying classes need to be super complex, I think simplicity is a goal that should be kept throughout the game. But simplicity doesn't require a complete dearth of options.

If you have 20 rounds of combat, and however many rounds of the other pillars, but if all you do is use the same one or maybe two options all 20 rounds of combat and have no support for the other pillars, you're not really learning the mechanics of your character. Saying level 2 isn't that far away only further reinforces the idea that level 1 is just a hoop to jump through to get to the real meat of the game.

fjw70 · Nov 14, 2012

Here is my preferred fighter progression with ED and maneuvers (and drop the extra attack).

1st – gain a 1d6 ED, deadly strike, and choose a fighting style. Get all the maneuvers from that style.
2nd – Gain a maneuver from a second fighting style
3rd – increase ED to 2d6
4th – Gain a maneuver from a second fighting style
5th – increase ED to 3d6
6th – Gain a maneuver from a second fighting style
7th – increase ED to 4d6
8th – Gain a maneuver from a second fighting style
9th – increase ED to 5d6
10th – Gain a maneuver from a second fighting style
11th – increase ED to 6d6
14th – increase ED to 6d8
17th – increase ED to 6d10
20th – increase ED to 6d12

By 3rd level the fighter can already start using multiple dice to string maneuvers together and increase the effectiveness of single maneuvers. By 10th he has a lot of options in terms of dice and maneuvers. However, he only has 11 of the possible 17 maneuvers currently available and there will undoubtedly be more maneuvers in the final game so there is still a lot of room for character differentiation.

In the teens keep the number of dice fixed and start increasing the size of the die. I am not sure about adding new maneuvers after tenth. I am not oppose to it, just unsure of how to do it.

MortalPlague · Nov 15, 2012

fjw70 said:
In the teens keep the number of dice fixed and start increasing the size of the die. I am not sure about adding new maneuvers after tenth. I am not oppose to it, just unsure of how to do it.

I like the idea of keeping one size of die up till level 10, then swapping out for a bigger size after that. That seems like a good way to break up the progression.

I'm still concerned about the number of maneuvers on your list; I see it causing all kinds of option paralysis, much like 4th edition at higher levels. Except in this case, you get it right from the get-go.

fjw70 · Nov 15, 2012

MortalPlague said:
I like the idea of keeping one size of die up till level 10, then swapping out for a bigger size after that. That seems like a good way to break up the progression.

I'm still concerned about the number of maneuvers on your list; I see it causing all kinds of option paralysis, much like 4th edition at higher levels. Except in this case, you get it right from the get-go.

There should at least be an option for PCs to have a lot of options at 1st level for the players and group that want and can handle it.

The way the monsters are currently designed many groups won't be adventuring past 10th since there won't be a lot to challange them at that point. It would be a shame to finally get a full style worth of maneuvers and then immediately retire the character.

Also I don't think 6 maneuvers is too much at 1st. Many of the maneuvers are situational and won't be competing with each other every turn. For example, if you don't get hit that turn then Parry isn't part of your decsion process that turn, the opponent doesn't have cover so Precise Shot is a non-factor, etc.