More maneuvers at low level.

[fjw70]

Let’s take a look at how complex starting with 6 maneuvers would be. Let’s assume the sharpshooter style is chosen so we have the following known maneuvers.

Deadly Strike - default option
Precise Shot – only an option when target has cover
Spring Attack – only an option when you need to disengage or hustle
Composed Attack – only an option hen you have disadvantage
Danger Sense – only an option at the beginning of combat
Volley – an option when you can attack multiple targets

Only DS and Volley can be used on your turn. The rest are very situational and probably are only competing with saving your die for DS when you turn comes up. You only have 1 XD for a while so that simplifies thing too.

This doesn’t seem all that complex to me. I think people are equating maneuvers with 4e attack powers and saying “I have 6 maneuvers so I must have 6 things to spend my XD when my turn comes up.” However, that simply isn’t the case.

[Ferghis]

I think people are equating maneuvers with 4e attack powers and saying “I have 6 maneuvers so I must have 6 things to spend my XD when my turn comes up.”

I don't think anyone really thinks that.

Some might mean that a new player has to keep in mind a bunch of different options, and therefore fewer options are better. But I really think that the main concern is diluting level-up rewards. "I just gained a new maneuver, now I have two!" is much more elating than "I just gained a new maneuver, I'll add it to the pile of seven."

[fjw70]

I don't think anyone really thinks that.

Some might mean that a new player has to keep in mind a bunch of different options, and therefore fewer options are better. But I really think that the main concern is diluting level-up rewards. "I just gained a new maneuver, now I have two!" is much more elating than "I just gained a new maneuver, I'll add it to the pile of seven."

Do you have these same concerns for wizards and clerics? They each start with 5 prepared spells and get a new spell slot every level. The wizards gets 2 news spells every level (plus the option of finding other spells as treasure) and the cleric gets a whole list of new spells every two levels.

Are those players complaining about too many options at 1st level and diluted level-up rewards?

[fjw70]

"I just gained a new maneuver, now I have two!" is much more elating than "I just gained a new maneuver, I'll add it to the pile of seven."

I think I start with 6 maneuvers is much more exciting than I start with 1 or 2.

[Blackwarder]

Here is what i said in WotC survey:

At first level you pick a basic fighting style that consist of 3 basic maneuvers, after another 3 levels you can either choose the veteran fighting style of your basic style or pick another basic fighting style 3 levels later you can either choose a master fighting style, veteran fighting style or basic fighting style.

About ED progression:
1st 1d4 pick a basic style (three basic maneuvers)
2nd 2d4
3rd 1d4+1d6
4th 2d6 Pick veteran fighting style (two maneuvers) or another basic fighting style
5th 3d6
6th 2d6+1d8
7th 1d6+2d8
8th 3d8 Pick a master fighting style (two maneuvers) or a veteran fighting style
9th 4d8
10th 3d8+1d10
etc...

Deadly strike could be one of the basic maneuvers and shouldn't be mandatory.

Warder

[Hjorimir]

I'm not a fan of front-loading classes as a general rule, so I can't say I'm a fan of the idea of giving more maneuvers at 1st level. Also, I think we need to see how multiclassing works before we understand any balance issues that may come up as a result.

[Blackwarder]

multi classing will just spread the first 3 basic maneuvers on the first 3 levels...

Warder

[fjw70]

I'm not a fan of front-loading classes as a general rule, so I can't say I'm a fan of the idea of giving more maneuvers at 1st level. Also, I think we need to see how multiclassing works before we understand any balance issues that may come up as a result.

With my idea (start with 6 maneuvers and get 5 more by level 10) I would only give the extra maneuvers at first level for those that begin as fighter. If you multiclass into it then you only get DS at first and then 5 more by 10th.

[fjw70]

Here is what i said in WotC survey:

At first level you pick a basic fighting style that consist of 3 basic maneuvers, after another 3 levels you can either choose the veteran fighting style of your basic style or pick another basic fighting style 3 levels later you can either choose a master fighting style, veteran fighting style or basic fighting style.

About ED progression:
1st 1d4 pick a basic style (three basic maneuvers)
2nd 2d4
3rd 1d4+1d6
4th 2d6 Pick veteran fighting style (two maneuvers) or another basic fighting style
5th 3d6
6th 2d6+1d8
7th 1d6+2d8
8th 3d8 Pick a master fighting style (two maneuvers) or a veteran fighting style
9th 4d8
10th 3d8+1d10
etc...

Deadly strike could be one of the basic maneuvers and shouldn't be mandatory.

Warder

Still too few maneuvers for my taste and I don't like having more than one type of die at one time. It makes those "roll all dice and keep the highest" maneuvers kind of weird, and I like those maneuvers.

[Ferghis]

Do you have these same concerns for wizards and clerics? They each start with 5 prepared spells and get a new spell slot every level.

With the subtle difference that they can only memorize one per day. They have at wills that they do not need to select after character-creation, and so that's a one-time choice. So, the increase that comes with levels is very substantial.

To be clear, I hope they both increase the number of spells clerics and wizards get, and they raise the number of maneuvers fighters, rogues and monks get. Starting with six seems a bit high to me, but I'm certainly not in charge here.