House rule to Replace the flat DC15 for massive damage

IceBear · Dec 10, 2002

I don't like the fact that the Fort save for massive damage is a flat DC15. What are some house rules that people use for this?

I'm thinking something like DC=15 (base)+1/10 points of damage above base.

A medium creature hit for 72 points of damage would have to make a DC=17 save.

IceBear

Hollywood · Dec 10, 2002

IceBear said:
I don't like the fact that the Fort save for massive damage is a flat DC15. What are some house rules that people use for this?

I'm thinking something like DC=15 (base)+1/10 points of damage above base.

A medium creature hit for 72 points of damage would have to make a DC=17 save.

We've yet to implement it, but we're thinking of using a DC=15 + damage done via the dice roll, i.e a barbarian wielding a greataxe would have a DC ranging from 16 to 27.

Plane Sailing · Dec 10, 2002

Hollywood, I'm pretty sure that Icebear is talking about the save when the massive damage threshold (50pts) is exceeded - which is a very different issue to what you seem to be describing.

Icebear - You could simplify your formula to being DC = 10 + (damage/10) when damage >=50. This works out exactly the same as what you are saying, but by happy co-incidence is marginally easier to calculate quickly.

I think I'd go with that.

Cheers

IceBear · Dec 11, 2002

Thanks Planesailing, that's about what I wrote in my notes.

Hmmmm - the reason I asked that question was because I thought a lot of people had house ruled it. I guess not

IceBear

Chacal · Dec 11, 2002

I haven't DMed high level enough to use the rule, but I'll certainly house rule it.
Perhaps I'll stick with the base DC or your rule for instant death,
and use a higher DC for avoiding KO.

Chacal

uv23 · Dec 11, 2002

Currently under consideration in my campaign setting:

Note that this lends itself way more to a gritty campaign setting rather than a super duper heroic one. I've always found the 50 damage thing silly. This is also a low magic setting so if you're struck for 30 points of damage by a fireball, its a pretty significant event and you should have a real chance of dying regardless of hitpoints.

Instead, massive damage is dependent on the Constitution of the victim. If he suffers damage greater than his Con, he must make a fort save or die. The DC for the fort save is damage done minus the victim's constitution.

Example:

Joe the fighter has a Con of 12. He suffers 20 points of damage. He must make a fort save s DC 8 (20-12) or die instantly.

Since charater's fort saves increase with level, they should have a greater chance of surviving more damage as they start to face more and more deadly beasties.

Variations:
Massive damage threshold is twice the character's constitution. DC is damage dealt minus that threshold.

OR

Instead of instant death, character is reduced to -1 hitpoints and is dying.

Crothian · Dec 11, 2002

I upped the DC to 25. By the time characters and monsters were doing 50 points of damage, a DC 15 fort save was a joke.

Hollywood · Dec 11, 2002

Plane Sailing,

Nope was talking about the MDT too. Since most of the damage caused to get to 50+ [or racial max.] is normally bonuses due to magic, strength, etc. instead of trying to find a good formula that worked, we've basically decided to go to with the DC of 15 (although think we may go with a DC 10 as the base) + the damage done via the dice roll.

Al · Dec 11, 2002

The major side-effect of tweaking the Massive Damage save is that high-level spellcasters become a whole lot more powerful.

For example, by 11th level, the wizard can throw a Maximised Fireball for 60 points of damage. If the damage isn't bad enough, you have to take a Fort save or die anyway. Granted, you get a Reflex save, but if you fail that, you are on for a MD save.

Now, under Crothian's ruling, that DC becomes 25 (!) Compare and contrast with the higher level Finger of Death (which has a DC probably in the low 20s, affects one creature and does much less damage on a failed save).

Under uv23's ruling, this save becomes nigh impossible to make. 60 points of damage? So, with a Con of 20, you still have to make a DC 40 save. The 2xCon works for a bit, but when the Maximised Cone of Cold hits you for 90 points, you will be facing a DC 50 save (assuming 20 Con doubled).

Hollywood: What of spells? The 'base damage' theory is all very well, but if applied to spells, what would one use. For the Maximised Fireball, would it be 15+d6, 15+6, 15+10d6 (!) or 15+60 (!!).

Personally, I think that the MDT works fine. If any of the tweaks here is passable, I would probably run with IceBear's.

Hollywood · Dec 11, 2002

Al said:
Hollywood: What of spells? The 'base damage' theory is all very well, but if applied to spells, what would one use. For the Maximised Fireball, would it be 15+d6, 15+6, 15+10d6 (!) or 15+60 (!!).

Yeah, thats true. For spells it would probably be the first damage dice only. So even a Max. Fireball would generate a DC save of 21 [15+6].

I should note to go along with that, the PCs and NPCs don't automatically die, rather they get set to -1 hp. Monsters do die [note, the more intelligent monsters such as dragons I don't consider monsters and they get treated as NPCs].