Here Comes . . . the Monk!

GX.Sigma · Nov 14, 2012

Mirtek said:
And I'd bet there are just as much (if not more) more people that expect the D&D monk to be a chaotic type like Jackie Chan or the american shaolin guy (from that movie) than a law abiding asceticism guy

I don't know about that, but there have been 2 Monks in my weekly 4e game whom I'd definitely describe as Chaotic. I think it would be wrong to say they can't play those characters, but I still think the Monk in the book should be a Monk. I think it's the group's/DM's prerogative to decide what each class means in their world.

Maybe that's what they do. Have a few paragraphs explaining the history of the class--examples of what that class means in published worlds. So it's not in there as a rule, but as a suggestion:

Example said:
In the world of Greyhawk, the Bards are ferocious warriors who use divine magic: they are trained by the Druids, and thus their alignment must be neutral on at least one axis (neutral good, chaotic neutral, etc.).

In the Forgotten Realms, and the wider world of Planescape, a Bard is often a wandering minstrel or poet, whose innate arcane talent comes from the heart. These Bards are usually chaotic.

The implication is that, while that's what that class means in those worlds, it doesn't have to be what it means in your world.

mlund · Nov 14, 2012

Obryn said:
Because as a melee combatant, monks need it more.

While the Wizard doesn't actively seek to enter melee, ranged and melee attackers still actively seek to kill the Wizard. He happens to be made out of cheese and dressed in paper, BTW. Constitution is ridiculously important for him, especially in an edition without proper Defenders. I don't think I ever put together a Wizard in Living Greyhawk with less than 14 Constitution.

Meanwhile the Rogue is a melee combatant - and probably has worse AC than the Monk due to getting Light Armor instead of Wisdom to AC.

Frighteningly enough, I think the Fighter and the Rogue are the characters blessed with Mono-Stat-Potential due to their immediate access to the Parry ability. They have built-in damage soaking. You could give a Fighter high Strength and 10s in everything else (or Dex if he uses Ranged or Finesse Weapons) and he'll fight almost as well as a Fighter with better stats in his other abilities. Same goes for the Rogue with Dexterity.

The Cleric is weird. You can play a perfectly viable Cleric dumping Wisdom and going all Strength. Heavy Armor for him and the Fighter basically give them immunity to Dexterity requirements. He also comes with built-in healing.

The Wizard is Intelligence, sure, but Dexterity and Constitution really extend his modest survival potential.

The Monk actually needs solid Dexterity and Wisdom to do his job effectively. He has some self-healing, but he can't even take a damage prevention maneuver until Level 4 and has much less self-healing than the Cleric.

Hey, at least he doesn't use the d4 for hit dice anymore.

Slap a proper parry / block / dodge maneuver on his list out of the gate and he'd be reasonably survivable without needing Constitution so badly. Then he's not really MAD anymore.

- Marty Lund

Stalker0 · Nov 14, 2012

The overall execution of the monk looks pretty good right now, but some of the manuevers need work.

Flurry of Blows is a weakened deadly strike which requires a lot more attack rolls (yes you can attack multiple targets, but I don't know if rolling 1d10 for damage at 10th level is going to be worth an attack....maybe with crits).

Deflect Missiles is just too complicated for what it does. Why do I need to roll all the expertise dice and make another attack roll all to let me throw an arrow back at someone for 1d10 / 2?. Couldn't I just use the original attack roll? Is letting me get the full 1d10 damage roll so gamebreaking?

That said, I think Iron Root Defense is a great example of the same stuff done in a very different way. Iron Root and Parry both negate damage. But Parry lets you soak more from one attack, doesn't negate mobility, and is reactive. Meanwhile Iron Root negates from all sources (including spells) and potentially give you huge amounts of reduction if facing a lot of attacks.

Grimmjow · Nov 14, 2012

nice i think the monk looks great! going to have to give it a try but looks like lots of fun

fjw70 · Nov 14, 2012

I love the monk. I love the use of expertise dice for his class.

I would remove the need for a second ED to catch a missile. I would just say that any deflection can be caught. This is very similar to the maneuver I came up with for Jedi Knights to deflect and redirect blaster bolts.

mlund · Nov 14, 2012

I have to agree. It's a little over-complicated. One die to increase AC through deflection. On a successful deflection you can blow unused dice to throw the weapon at a fixed range increment for Expertise Dice in damage - basically a Riposte mechanic, but at range. (That reminds me, give the Fighter a Riposte mechanic!)

Bob shoots you with an arrow. You catch it and whip it around into Jeff's windpipe. Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

Also works perfectly with deflecting blaster bolts for fun and profit. That's an awesome idea!

- Marty Lund

fjw70 · Nov 14, 2012

mlund said:
I have to agree. It's a little over-complicated. One die to increase AC through deflection. On a successful deflection you can blow unused dice to throw back the weapon at a fixed range increment for Expertise Dice in damage - basically a Riposte mechanic, but at range.

Which reminds me - give the Fighter a Riposte mechanic!

- Marty Lund

Good idea on the riposte.

tlantl · Nov 14, 2012

frankthedm said:
Because if there is one thing game designers love doing, it is making monks MAD as hell!

I think every class should have three abilities they need to be effective. Six would be even better. I love watching players agonize over their characters and I really love reading people complaining how MAD their characters are.

Better yet...

Go on complain.

Ahnehnois · Nov 14, 2012

tlantl said:
I think every class should have three abilities they need to be effective. Six would be even better. I love watching players agonize over their characters and I really love reading people complaining how MAD their characters are.

Agreed, I don't think MAD monks are a problem, it's SAD wizards that are not good.

Grimmjow · Nov 14, 2012

Magil said:
Didn't see that coming. At least the article hints that they're starting to have misgivings about giving expertise dice to everyone... of course, they also say the monk currently has them.

the way they use them (at first glance haven't actually played them yet) feels different from the fighter and rogue at least.