Why does the idea of no Free Will bother some people?

KarinsDad

Adventurer
Quantum physics says everything's random, anyway. So your entire premise of predictability is wrong.

Quantum Physics does not state this.

It is actually unknown because we are talking about forces so small that we do not understand them.

Just because something seems random, or better phrased "non-deterministic", does not mean that it is. This just means that something is so complex that the results cannot be determined by people.

If the laws of physics are not random at all, then we do not have free will. Everything that happens to us and everything we do and think, is "programmed". It appears random. It appears to be free will. But, it isn't.

If the laws of physics are random, then fate is not determined ahead of time. However, we still do not have free will in the normal sense of it. Everything we think is pre-programmed into us from all of our lifetime experiences. If you had a different set of parents (say that you were adopted), then your likes, your dislikes, your entire being would be different because your experiences would be different. There would be some propensities based on your genetics, but your different experiences would shape you differently.
 

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KarinsDad

Adventurer
Consider this:

If I don't have free will, whether or not I am bothered by the idea is... not my will!

Yes. But, one can study the concept, understand not only the science behind it, but the deeper philosophical aspects, and eventually come to the conclusion that it doesn't really make a difference, and stop being bothered by it.

But, only some people can do that. Others have been conditioned by life in such a way that it will always bother them, regardless of them studying the topic. And, some people will refuse to study it in the first place because to do so is anathema to them.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
But here's the thing, if we DID, we would know EXACTLY what would happen next. Because what happens next is based on the exact current position, velocity and trajectory of every unit of matter and energy in the universe. Including the insides of your brain.

...

So basically, thus far, I'm saying the universe is really really complex and while some stuff is predictable, other stuff apppears to be random. But if we KNEW the state of everything, we COULD compute the future.

Except, we cannot.

Not in the "there are too many things, as a practical matter we cannot know them all" way. Quantum Mechanics appears to enforce this in a far more fundamental way - the information you would need *cannot* be known.

This is the root of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. It isn't just that we currently lack the ability to know the variables in question, but that if we actually peg down one, the act of doing so scrambles up the other. Nailing down the position of a particle actively changes its momentum in an unpredictable way.

Yes, there was a recent experiment in which someone got more information than one might have guessed they could have. On the other hand, every piece of modern electronics (anything using a semiconductor) is based upon the Uncertainty Principle - it is the basis of "tunnelling", which is required for electronics to function.

So, this point, that *if* we had all the information, we *could* calculate it all, breaks down - the IF cannot be fulfilled.

A couple posts up, KD refers to what in the business we'd call "Hidden Variable" theory - that QM is actually not what's going on, and we don't know the actual rules. Hidden variable ideas have been around for a long time, but remain unproven. In general, Hidden Variable theories seem to have their own bothersome problems, so you may be trading randomness in the universe for something just as unpalatable.
 
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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Yes. But, one can study the concept, understand not only the science behind it, but the deeper philosophical aspects, and eventually come to the conclusion that it doesn't really make a difference, and stop being bothered by it.

Maybe you can, and maybe you can't.

If you are a meat computer, it depends on your programming. Either you are programmed to come to the point where you can stop being bothered by it... or you cannot. If you don't have the right programming, there is no recourse. You certainly cannot "choose" to react differently - you cannot step outside your program.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Duh. I just found a wonderful gaming analog to the question in the OP...

Why are people bothered by the idea of no free will?

Why are some gamers bothered by a lack of character death in a game, or railroading plots?

The basic answer is probably the same - it is a question of whether you get to make "meaningful choices".
 

jonesy

A Wicked Kendragon
Maybe you can, and maybe you can't.

If you are a meat computer, it depends on your programming. Either you are programmed to come to the point where you can stop being bothered by it... or you cannot. If you don't have the right programming, there is no recourse. You certainly cannot "choose" to react differently - you cannot step outside your program.
Ah, but usually these sort of thought experiments assume a meat computer that does what the program tells it to do, and so stays within parameters. What if we are actually glitchy and new strings of code keep appearing in the loop everytime it is run? What if our sentience in this dirt poor analogy is a virus?
 

SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
Ah, but usually these sort of thought experiments assume a meat computer that does what the program tells it to do, and so stays within parameters. What if we are actually glitchy and new strings of code keep appearing in the loop everytime it is run? What if our sentience in this dirt poor analogy is a virus?

Also we are self programming. (Hence self-reinforcement of negative behaviors).

We can change so "free will", but how much of it is a natural progression of what came before?
And if our previous experiences didn't give us the "tools" needed to grow and change, then we can't get out of our loop...what about outside influence from another person...hmm but they are helping because of their nature and programming.

It's a slippery slope and a hole you cant get out of.

BL: we are the sum of our experiences (and physical make up) Nature and Nurture applies.

BBL: I look at it as I do have free will. Everything is influenced by my makeup, sometime to the point of pre-determination. But over the years I have changed and you have to take the why into account, the motivation. The change is harder or easier depending on your makeup, and for some is impossible.

BBBL: Example: My physical makeup is small and fairly weak. But I changed that. I could only change it within the limitations of my DNA and human capability, but now I am strong and healthy.

So goes my brain and behavior. True, within the limits of nature and nurture, but there is room for choosing changes.
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
Maybe you can, and maybe you can't.

If you are a meat computer, it depends on your programming. Either you are programmed to come to the point where you can stop being bothered by it... or you cannot. If you don't have the right programming, there is no recourse. You certainly cannot "choose" to react differently - you cannot step outside your program.

Yes. As per my second paragraph that you did not quote. ;)
 

Janx

Hero
Duh. I just found a wonderful gaming analog to the question in the OP...

Why are people bothered by the idea of no free will?

Why are some gamers bothered by a lack of character death in a game, or railroading plots?

The basic answer is probably the same - it is a question of whether you get to make "meaningful choices".

good point. the concept of choice vs. Choice (capital C implying meaningful choice).

A GM could supply a player with a dungeon crossroads and imply he has a choice. But without any information, it doesn't really matter which corridor he takes. It's not a meaningful choice.

Furthermore, the GM could stick orcs down at the end of whatever hallway he chooses, further un-differentiating the choices.

Conversely, in real life, people will assign blame and responsibility by saying the person had a choice. For example, saying poor people are poor because they made bad choices and didn't find a job.

But that's a half-accurate assessment. Obviously, a guy who lost his job and is in the bread line must have made some choice in the past that led him to his current state. Maybe he should have been more diplomatic in that one staff meeting that rubbed his Director wrong and caused him to get a lower score on his annual review, which put him in the queue for next to be laid off.

However, this poor guy didn't have that knowledge when he made that choice, didn't even know it was a factor in his future fate (much like that choice of generic dungeon corridors).

His personality wiring makes him less diplomatic and more direct, so he's naturally predisposed to saying something career limiting. it's a predictable outcome.

to further judge him and his failure to get a job, one has to consider that his fate lies in other people's choices as well. Somebody else makes the decision to pass on him and go with the cheaper unexperienced kid.

What usually bugs me the most on the topic of choice (which does bind back to lack of free will) is that when something bad happens, folks will point and say "you chose to do that" as if the person could have chosen differently. Yet, when you look at the situation, and the psychological make-up of the person, it's a foregone conclusion on the path that person would take with the information the person had at hand.

To my eye, I can guess or predict how someone will likely behave. After the fact, I can review a situation and see how somebody comes to be where they are at. At that point, while I see the choice points they made that they had an opportunity to do something different, the path they actually chose is laid in as a railroad.

The GM could argue, "you guys COULD have chosen to betray the king and side with the demon", but to me, I look at the players, and I know that certain "choices" are not an option for them. They don't really have free will to burn the village, eat the orphans and partner up with the demon, because that's just not a path they will choose. (note, there are plenty of players who WILL do just that). It's a case of knowing your players. In my case, when I know my players, I know how they will respond to stimuli and can predict their response with reasonable reliability.

Thus, I can manipulate them into doing the adeventure, rescuing the princess, etc. They don't really have a choice, because I already know how they will choose because I frame the choice in a way that sets up the response I can rely on. If I don't think my players are likely to rescue a princess, I don't set that kind of situation up.

So, because I see people as predictable and manipulatable to some extent (not saying I am actually good at those things), I tend to see that as a lack of free will on their part.
 

jonesy

A Wicked Kendragon
What usually bugs me the most on the topic of choice (which does bind back to lack of free will) is that when something bad happens, folks will point and say "you chose to do that" as if the person could have chosen differently. Yet, when you look at the situation, and the psychological make-up of the person, it's a foregone conclusion on the path that person would take with the information the person had at hand.
Hindsight is 20/20. Or maybe it just looks that way. ;)
 

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