D&D 5E Should 5E Characters be MAD?

Olgar Shiverstone · Nov 15, 2012

All stats should be valuable, but some should be more valuable than others. I'd like to see two important scores per class, minimum.

Falling Icicle · Nov 15, 2012

Li Shenron said:
OTOH I also LIKE a game where having a low or even very low stat (or even two) doesn't make my character bordering the unplayable.

I don't want people with a low stat to be unplayable. I just don't want people to be able to dump stats without any consequences. It's fine to play characters with weaknesses as long as they actually are weaknesses.

Remathilis · Nov 15, 2012

Most classes are pretty MAD, but its not reflecting well.

Fighter: Strength (melee), Dex (ranged), Con (Hp).
Cleric: Wis (Spells), Cha (Turning/Channel Divinity), Str (melee/armor)
Wizard: Int (spells), Dex (AC, touch spells), Con (Hp)
Rogue: Dex (AC, ranged, finesse), Int (Skills), Cha (Skills) or Con (hp)
Monk: Dex (Atk, AC) Wis (AC/Ki), Con (hp)
Sorcerer Cha (spells), Str (Atk), Con (Hp)
Warlock Cha (spells), Dex (AC/blast), Con (Hp)

The trick is not to let classes get away with dumping; fighters need ranged attacks to keep bows usable, clerics should be rewarded by going into combat, wizard need attack roll spells, etc.

Greg K · Nov 15, 2012

Razjah said:
For that, I love the idea of Cha powering the ability to pull stunts like swinging from a tapestry.

While I am all for not having dump stats, I would not want to see stunts like swinging from a tapestry powered by Cha.

Ahnehnois · Nov 15, 2012

Definitely, I want more MAD. More to the point, I want all ability scores to be useful. Above and beyond class design, there needs to be built-in system reasons for any character to pay attention to each ability score: benefits for a high score and penalties for a low one.

With regards to casters, some of the niche late-3e casters had an approach that I think should be more widespread: using different ability scores for different purposes. DCs based on one ability, spell slots based on another. This allows for an interesting mechanical diversity of characters while also making it harder to do cheesy builds based on one ability score.

griffonwing · Nov 15, 2012

I agree that every stat should be equally important. You should have a tough decision on where you want your stats to be. There should rarely, if ever, be "i wont need this stat for anything".

Why does your STR ability make you easier to hit someone? Swordplay is a learned artform, and INT and DEX makes much more sense. STR should only increase the amount of melee damage you do. A good fighter is a smart fighter.

Sunseeker · Nov 15, 2012

I believe a 3-stat design is superior than a two, or one-stat design. BUT: only if the content allows the player to determine the priority of those stats.

Lets say a fighter is Str, Con, Wis.
A Wis, Con, Str fighter would be like a warlord, good at buffing and debuffing, durable, but not a bruiser.
A Con, Wis, Str fighter would be more along the lines of a soaker, survivability, buffs and debuffs, but low damage.
A Str, Wis, Con fighter would be a more charismatic type, dishing out great damage but utilizing buffs and debuffs to make combat more interesting.
And of course you're got your typical Str, Con, Wis fighter who hits things, doesn't die, and says "What's a buff? Is that like, the size of my biceps?"

So basically, I approve of MAD, but only when MAD allows a player to be MORE creative, not less. Using multiple stats to generate even a typical character should lead to more interesting ways to conceptualize and play that character. It shouldn't lead to pigeon-holeing where players are forced to put their numbers into pre-defined stats in a pre-defined order otherwise risk being doomed to be a useless mook.

Stalker0 · Nov 15, 2012

griffonwing said:
Why does your STR ability make you easier to hit someone?

Strength provides a faster swing, so its harder to dodge, and more penetration on that swing.

griffonwing · Nov 15, 2012

Stalker0 said:
Strength provides a faster swing, so its harder to dodge, and more penetration on that swing.

Faster swing? No. I can swing a sword faster than Mr Olympia.

Deeper penetration? That is damage, not attack.

GnomeWorks · Nov 15, 2012

You know, MAD could be averted - to some degree - with stronger mechanical support for the exploration and interaction pillars...

In regards to combat, it would be nice to have every class rely on at least two ability scores. SAD is too easily abused with built-in stat increases with level gain.