D&D 5E New raise dead. thoughts?

pemerton

Legend
In my experience the dead guy usually has to wait until the fight is over and the group makes the trip to town, where in most cases the whole affair takes a few minutes of the time allotted for your gaming session.
You seem to be making big assumptions here about how a campaign unfolds. I don't run a particularly exploration-oriented game, but I've run games in which the PCs are travelling through the wilderness, or through the astral plane, and this takes multiple sessions of play without a "trip back to town".

Of course if the party had an NPC along for moral support, or the dead guy had a henchman or two, the player sitting idle wouldn't be an issue since he could still continue to play only he'd be using a different character.
This also seems to make assumptions about playstyle, such as that there is no important or intimate connection between a particular player's participation in the campaign, and a particular PC.

As I see it, someone complaining about the natural outcome of a game where characters are put in life threatening situations and they fail is the last thing I want to deal with.
It's none of my business what you will or won't deal with, but it's wrong to say that PC death is, per se, a natural outcome of the game. That's already asssuming what's at issue, namely, is Raise Dead avaiable? Is there some sort of death flag mechanic like [MENTION=1465]Li Shenron[/MENTION] suggested? Etc.

There's any number of mechanical and non-mechanical ways of running a heroic fantasy RPG so that PC death is not a natural outcome despite frequent life-threatening situations.
 

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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
This also seems to make assumptions about playstyle, such as that there is no important or intimate connection between a particular player's participation in the campaign, and a particular PC.
I make it very clear up front that characters can and will die, and worse; and then if a player still makes that much connection with a character at least my conscience will be clear when things go sideways...

A player who gets hissy when things go badly for their character(s) isn't someone I want to play with, either as DM or fellow player. Conversely, someone who cheers like a sports fan when things go really well is just fine by me. :)

Lan-"combat is war, D&D is sport"-efan
 

delericho

Legend
Okay so the topic of death as a revolving door is a continous complaint among gamers with seemingly everyone disliking how newer editions have done it but without really being able to agree on a better way.

The raising of the dead, like healing, is prime fodder for a module. Some groups will want quick and easy (and painless) raising, others will want no raising at all, and most will want something in-between.

Personally, I felt that this was one area that 4e excelled in (at least in PHB1) - raise dead was a fairly costly ritual that applied some hefty penalties to the character who was raised, but that those penalties gradually faded as milestones were attained.

However, I would prefer WotC actually provided several options in the rules - the "just tick off 500gp" option, the "temporary penalty" option, the "permanent level-loss" option, the "permanent Con-loss" option. Oh, and options where there's a hard limit to the number of times you can be raised, and options where there is not.
 

Gargoyle

Adventurer
The problem with Raise Dead isn't the spell itself. It's when it's available.

In the days of 1E and 2E, D&D campaigns typically went from level 1 to somewhere around level 9 or 10 at the end. So, Raise Dead was something that was available for the PC cleric to cast only at the very end of the campaign, as you needed to be level 9 to be able to cast it. Heck, you might have only just gotten to level 9 and the campaign is ending, so even if a companion dies, you're at the finale and any Raise Dead would take place after the finale.

And, in keeping with that theme, there were probably not too many NPCs of that level, either. And, you'd need to either convince them to raise your fallen companion, or else make a sizable donation to the church in order to get it done. In short, Raise Dead was generally pretty rare in old D&D.

In 3E, the game was retooled so the typical campaign went from level 1 to level 20 at the end. However, Raise Dead was still something that was available to the PCs at level 9. However, level 9 was now just before the typical campaign got to the halfway point. So, Raise Dead lost its rarity because it was just another mid-level cleric spell. It wasn't special anymore. It's now similar to a wizard casting Fireball in old D&D in terms of level equivalency. However, if you took it out of the game, you're also nerfing the cleric and one of their best mid-level spells.

Then, in 4E, the game was retooled again, and this time the typical campaign was supposed to go from level 1 all the way to level 30 now. However, Raise Dead was made even easier to cast - it was now a level 8 ritual. So, you're not even into the second "tier" of the campaign and you can still bring a PC back from the dead. It's the campaign equivalent of a cleric being able to cast Hold Person in old school D&D - nice, but is it really that special?

So, my thought would be to still allow Raise Dead, but push it back to when it's available to the players. Make it still special and available towards the end of the campaign only - not in the beginning or even in the middle.

To get rid of the deadliness, I'd use something like Revivify, which was from the 3.5E Spell Compendium - you can stabilize a dead companion at -1 hit points if you can cast it within one round of their death before the soul completely departs the body. Edited to add - Revivify means the "dead" but saved PC is still out of the combat, and it also penalizes the group because the cleric has to take his or her turn to cast the Revivify. So, the cleric is not casting Flame Strike to smite his or her foes, he or she is saving a fallen companion who won't be able to help anymore in the combat, anyhow.

Going by 1E to 3.5E guidelines, I'd make Revivify a level 5 spell, as before. Then, have Raise Dead/Slay Living as level 7, Resurrection as level 9 and True Res be an epic level type spell.

I very much like this analysis, and the proposal to bring back revivify.

I'd go a step further and make it so that any class can 'revivify', say with Heal skill, with the caveat that they shouldn't be able to do so as easily as a divine healer class. They would have to touch the person, and there should be a chance of failure (though perhaps not a big chance since they are already putting themselves at risk enough). So you could look at it as revivify would be like using the Heal skill to stabilize someone but at range with no chance of failure.
 

Stalker0

Legend
Here is the reason I don't like raise dead tied to money costs...its the same reason I don't like magic items tied to money....it removes a degree of freedom from the game.

Raise Dead and Magic Items are key sources of power in the game. If they cost money, then money becomes a direct source of power.

If I want to run a game with a lot of money, then I have to reign in other avenues to make it work. But if things like raise dead and magic can't be bought due to money then money is simply a factor of my game. Sure the 10th level fighter can buy keeps and such....but it doesn't buy him those key adventuring resources.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Here is the reason I don't like raise dead tied to money costs...its the same reason I don't like magic items tied to money....it removes a degree of freedom from the game.

Raise Dead and Magic Items are key sources of power in the game. If they cost money, then money becomes a direct source of power.

If I want to run a game with a lot of money, then I have to reign in other avenues to make it work. But if things like raise dead and magic can't be bought due to money then money is simply a factor of my game. Sure the 10th level fighter can buy keeps and such....but it doesn't buy him those key adventuring resources.
This works for Raise Dead - and any other spell for that matter - but not (believably) for magic items.

If for whatever reason I've got a magic item I don't need but that someone else does then that item immediately has a value; to wit, whatever amount the acquirer is willing to pay me for it either in coin, barter, or kind...and boom, you have a magic item economy.

Lanefan
 

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