D&D 4E 4e Encounter Design... Why does it or doesn't it work for you?

Tony Vargas

Legend
4e has glaring design flaws leading to it often being used in a combat-centric way...we may disagree on what those flaws are...
I don't know, if they're really 'glaring,' you'd expect some sort of vague consensus, at least among those determined to find flaws...

But the idea that D&D ever /wasn't/ 'combat-centric' seems strange to me. 0D&D was a wargame. AD&D classes had few and perfunctory out-of-combat abilities. 3e added skill ranks, which had plenty of problems of their own, and still provided no way of creating or structuring non-combat challenges, only a vague suggestion that PCs get some exp for them.

Throughout D&D history, classes have been collections of combat abilities - hps, spells, THAC0, BAB, saves, feats, arms & armor, special abilities, and powers. Skills waited until modern D&D, and only 4e actually had something like a system for out of combat challenges more detailed than involved than pass/fail skill checks.

It's not even unique to D&D, it's a rare RPG that doesn't devote the lion's share of its actual mechanics to combat.
 
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I don't know, if they're really 'glaring,' you'd expect some sort of vague consensus, at least among those determined to find flaws...

But the idea that D&D ever /wasn't/ 'combat-centric' seems strange to me. 0D&D was a wargame. AD&D classes had few and perfunctory out-of-combat abilities. 3e added skill ranks, which had plenty of problems of their own, and still provided no way of creating or structuring non-combat challenges, only a vague suggestion that PCs get some exp for them.

Throughout D&D history, classes have been collections of combat abilities - hps, spells, THAC0, BAB, saves, feats, arms & armor, special abilities, and powers. Skills waited until modern D&D, and only 4e actually had something like a system for out of combat challenges more detailed than involved than pass/fail skill checks.

It's not even unique to D&D, it's a rare RPG that doesn't devote the lion's share of its actual mechanics to combat.
Exactly. In fact you can add up how much space each edition spends on combat vs other stuff and it is actually about equal in all of them. Really, there are no surprises here with 4e.

What 4e does have is a combat system which is oriented towards making the combat encounter into a high adventure action scene instead of a brutal slugfest. You can handle things like tricks and traps and puzzles and anything else WITHIN the context of a combat encounter in an organized fashion. You can extend the encounter idea to other types of scenes or reconstitute a combat into an SC once fighting per-se isn't a major focus. Its a different way of looking at an adventure but not one that is "seriously flawed".
 

Starfox

Hero
The failure clearly has nothing to do with the quality of the mechanics presented, nor with the fact that they were presented, at all. 4e failed to capture your 'customer loyalty' or excite your imagination for whatever reason, but the quality of the mechanics wasn't it. 4e is technically a better game.

Can we please have a bit less edition warring and a bit less "I present my opinion as fact" in this thread? The above quote is just an example, there is a lot more. So nothing personal, Tony, I just picked an example.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
I can't reply to everything (when 9 people have felt the need to respond to you within the span of a few hours, you know you've hit a nerve...), but I did want to center on this, because this is I think the most important thing for NEXT to consider, regardless of my own particular quibbles with skills:

Tony Vargas said:
4e failed to capture your 'customer loyalty' or excite your imagination for whatever reason, but the quality of the mechanics wasn't it. 4e is technically a better game.

The idea that anyone other than me can decide what meets my needs as a gamer is frankly ludicrous.

Fun is subjective, not objective. The measure of a game is never technical -- like all design, it's ultimately functional, and the function of a recreational game -- fun -- insanely subjective. And 5e will already be a few legs up on 4e if it doesn't start from that assumption that it knows better than me what kind of game I want to play at my table.

This toxic idea that someone in Renton, WA knows what's a "better" way to spend my time than me is a non-starter.

And, for the record, I've quite possibly dumped more hours into playing 4e than I have into any other game out there. I'm not coming at this from a position of someone who has no fun with the system. I'm coming at this from a position of someone who does not have as much fun with the system as he otherwise could, if the system would just get over itself and give me what I am telling it to give me, rather than what it thinks I "really" need.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Can we please have a bit less edition warring and a bit less "I present my opinion as fact" in this thread? The above quote is just an example, there is a lot more. So nothing personal, Tony, I just picked an example.
No offense taken, but this is specifically a 4e thread (it's so labeled), so edition warring shouldn't really be an issue. And, there are objective ways to look at the quality of game mechanics - and 4e is easily the 'best' version of D&D to date if you just look at the quality of mechanics, not the delivery and other more subjective aspects what make a person like a game or not.

People who hate 4e have plenty of reasons, some are purely subjective, but others are completely bogus (mis-conceptions and even outright, malicious lies - "edition warring," indeed), and drawing any conclusion about 4e based on the bogus ones is something I'd like to help people avoid.
 
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Tony Vargas

Legend
The idea that anyone other than me can decide what meets my needs as a gamer is frankly ludicrous.

Fun is subjective, not objective. The measure of a game is never technical -- like all design, it's ultimately functional, and the function of a recreational game -- fun -- insanely subjective.
Games have both a subjective 'fun' aspect and an objective technical aspect. The mechanics of 4e are flatly superior to those of other eds of D&D. That's no big accomplishment, D&D was the first RPG, so it was very 'primitive,' and it was also very slow to change. Probably most games made after 1980 are technically less screwed up than anything done for D&D before 2000 (I haven't done an exhaustive survey, the point is just that classic D&D didn't change much for 26 years).

It's not surprising that 4e ruffled some feathers and appalled a lot of longtime players. It was a radical change. No matter how superior something new may be along any objectively measurable dimension, unfamiliarity, alone, can make it undesirable. That's not a new phenomenon. And I'm not just talking about the similar reaction classic D&Ders had to 3.0, either, but a whole 'human nature' phenomenon. If the hobby survives for generations, that sort of resistance will just be overcome. I don't see that happening, I suspect TT RPGs will be an obscure footnote in the history of on-line gaming even one generation from now.

And, for the record, I've quite possibly dumped more hours into playing 4e than I have into any other game out there. I'm not coming at this from a position of someone who has no fun with the system. I'm coming at this from a position of someone who does not have as much fun with the system as he otherwise could, if the system would just get over itself and give me what I am telling it to give me, rather than what it thinks I "really" need.
If the last post I responded to is any indication, you haven't really expressed what you "need" from it, since you contradicted yourself rather dramatically.

But, there's still a good point there. A 'good' game, in the technical sense, a balanced game, for instance, will be playable under a broader range of styles than a badly flawed one. So even if "fun" is subjective and hard to predict, a better-designed game will have a good chance of being "fun" to more potential players, if only because it'll be un-playable to fewer of them...
 

Fun is subjective, not objective. The measure of a game is never technical -- like all design, it's ultimately functional, and the function of a recreational game -- fun -- insanely subjective.

The trouble is that the technical aspect matters and is the only one that you can objectively talk about. And in this thread you have repeatedly posted things you think are part of the technical aspect. And at least a lot of the time you have done so, you have posted things that are, not to put too fine a point on it, in contradiction with the actual rules and guidance of 4e. A lot of the things on this thread you said you wish were true in 4e are true in 4e.
 

LostSoul

Adventurer
I think this needs a bit closer look though I would say:

In a 4e skill challenge, if you get a success on your Stealth check, that changes the narrative in some way. In fact you'd engage the narrative FIRST, to tell the DM what you want to do, and then a check would modulate what the final adjudication of that was, you'd roll your Stealth check and either the ogre hears you or he doesn't.

I agree. It seems like a lot of people don't approach the game that way, and I wonder why. Assuming that's true, is there a flaw in the text somewhere, or is it something else?

(I did my best in my hack to make this impossible. I tried to make it so that, without engaging the narrative, you could not proceed with resolution. You would not have enough information to set DCs or modifiers to the d20 roll.)

Now given that you're discussing an SC, the SC mechanic just says that the chance of the whole overall encounter failing has increased, the ogre is now alert, its going to be harder to get past. Or of course you may be quite well hidden and the ogre starts to lose interest, you're now a bit closer to success, but you still have to figure out how to get the key and unlock the door!

Yeah, when you are dealing with a skill challenge there's another step to consider: what does the action of the PC, when cast as a success or failure in a skill challenge, mean to the resolution of that skill challenge? I personally find this tricky to deal with in some circumstances and trivially easy in others.

In the last game I played there wasn't really any combat. One PC was trying to gather sacrifices from town as offerings to vine horrors in the nearby forest, hoping that the vine horrors would give her valuable information. The basic procedure was this: She'd take an abstract action to find a mark. Then she'd subdue him. Then she'd steal him away.

As we were playing I realized that, without any kind of structure - like the one provided by skill challenges - I could call for an endless series of checks. Or none. I didn't really have any basis on which to make that judgement call. I wasn't tracking the movement of each NPC through town at every single moment of the day!

What I did was use a "Reaction Roll" to set the number of successes needed. (Actually, since we've been playing for a while in-game time, there's a default Reaction, so I didn't even need to do that.) She had a good "Reaction" with the townspeople - they really trust and like her - meaning 2 successes before 4 failures.

Anyway. I don't know if I'd use a skill challenge to handle sneaking into a dungeon or fortress. I think the difference is that, when I have the specific details of the situation - map keys and who is where doing what - then I'll use individual rolls. When I have an abstract situation - I don't have a map, I don't know where the NPCs are or what they're doing - then I'll use a skill challenge. In the abstract I think it's easier to maintain player agency with a skill challenge, but if you have concrete details then I think a skill challenge can harm player agency.
 

pemerton

Legend
It seems like a lot of people don't approach the game that way, and I wonder why. Assuming that's true, is there a flaw in the text somewhere, or is it something else?
I think your conjecture is true (at least on the basis of the posts I've read on these boards over the past few years).

The relevant components of the text are, in my view, crystal clear as far as they go:

PHB pp 179, 259

Whatever the details of a skill challenge, the basic structure of a skill challenge is straightforward. Your goal is to accumulate a specific number of victories (usually in the form of successful skill checks) before you get too many defeats (failed checks). It’s up to you to think of ways you can use your skills to meet the challenges you face. . .

Your DM sets the stage for a skill challenge by describing the obstacle you face and giving you some idea of the options you have in the encounter. Then you describe your actions and make checks until you either successfully complete the challenge or fail.

DMG p 74
Begin by describing the situation and defining the challenge. . . You describe the environment, listen to the players’ responses, let them make their skill checks, and narrate the results. . .

Sometimes, a player tells you, “I want to make a Diplomacy check to convince the duke that helping us is in his best interest.” That’s great—the player has told you what she’s doing and what skill she’s using to do it. Other times, a player will say, “I want to make a Diplomacy check.” In such a case, prompt the player to give more information about how the character is using that skill. Sometimes, characters do the opposite: “I want to scare the duke into helping us.” It’s up to you, then, to decide which skill the character is using and call for the appropriate check.

DMG pp 73, 75
When a player’s turn comes up in a skill challenge, let that player’s character use any skill the player wants. As long as the player or you can come up with a way to let this secondary skill play a part in the challenge, go for it. . .

Always keep in mind that players can and will come up with ways to use skills you do not expect. Stay on your toes, and let whatever improvised skill uses they come up with guide the rewards and penalties you apply afterward. . .

In skill challenges, players will come up with uses for skills that you didn’t expect to play a role. Try not to say no. . .

However, it’s particularly important to make sure these checks are grounded in actions that make sense in the adventure and the situation. If a player asks, “Can I use Diplomacy?” you should ask what exactly the character might be doing to help the party survive in the uninhabited sandy wastes by using that skill. Don’t say no too often, but don’t say yes if it doesn’t make sense in the context of the challenge.​

Taken in isolation, this rules text makes the procedure clear: the GM frames the situation, which will include some signals about options for the PCs; the player declares an action for his/her PC, which (perhaps with the GM's help, and some back and forth negotiation between player and GM) is expressed as a skill check; the check is made and success or failure adjudicated and the consequences narrated; the re-framed situation is then explained by the GM; rinse and repeat.

But look at how the rules are located in the books - to get the relevant rules from the DMG, for example, I have to go back and forth over multiple paragraphs on multiple pages, with duplication but no single coherent statement of the procedure.

And there are other featurs of the rulebooks that push in other directions - in particular, the rules for single skill checks in the PHB, and the lack of any discussion of how single checks (and even sequences of single checks, such as might happen in a combat with many pits to be jumped over) are different in resolution from a skill challenge.

Furthermore, there is no discussion of the sorts of framing and narration techniques a GM needs to make a skill challenge work. The comparison to Burning Wheel and HeroQuest revised in this respect is particularly telling: HQ rev, for example, expressly discusses narrating details into the situation in order to support the (metagame determined) difficulty levels; and BW discusses how to narrate failed skill checks by reference to failure of intent rather than failure at task.

Finally, there is the actual format used to present skill challenge encounters. The only way to make any sense of this, in light of the actual rules, is as analogous to a combat encounter with suggested tactics. Every GM who is not a rank beginner understands that the suggested tactics for a combat encounter can change in various way - for example, the PCs might enter from a different route, or under cover of darkness, or having lured one of the NPCs out of the room first, etc. But many 4e players seem not to have understood the skill challenge format, with suggested skills and actions, as comparable to that: a guide to the GM to help adjudicate a skill challenge if the players take the most forseeable path, rather than a pre-determination of how the encounter must unfold. And the format itslelf singularly fails to make this clear.

A striking contrast is the formatting in the original HeroWars Narrator's Guide of the extended contests in the example scenarios. These are, for present purposes, just like skill challenges. But the text and layout makes it clear that the lists of abilities and actions are suggestions to the GM for adjudicating likely player choices, and for helping the GM flag to the players what their options might be. No one would look at the encounters in those sample scenarios and interpret them the way some people have interpreted 4e skill challenges.

I think it's bizarre that WotC, in presenting a mechanic so obviously derivative of games like HeroWars/Quest, Maelstrom Storytelling, Burning Wheel etc didn't try at all to emulate some of what is successful in the rulebooks for those games, in conveying how mechanics are meant to work, and in presenting extended contests for pre-packaged scenarios in a way that makes it clear that it is not a predetermined mechanical recipe that the players and GM are just expected to follow robotically.

I did my best in my hack to make this impossible. I tried to make it so that, without engaging the narrative, you could not proceed with resolution. You would not have enough information to set DCs or modifiers to the d20 roll.)
That makes me think of some things I've read Vincent Baker say about Dogs in the Vineyard.

I don't think my adjudication and approach is as toothy as that: for example, DCs can be set without engaging the narrative, by reference to the relevant chart.

I do my best to get toothiness at the point of adjudication - if it's not clear what exactly the PC is doing, or trying to do, I can't narrate and reframe the scene in response to the character's action - and so I work out with the player what exactly is being attempted, and hence what exactly is happening. Generally this happens before the dice are rolled, because my general practice as GM is to restate back to the table what is being attempted with a skill before the check is actually made. (I think this might be a habit more common in traditionalist GM?)

I think the difference is that, when I have the specific details of the situation - map keys and who is where doing what - then I'll use individual rolls. When I have an abstract situation - I don't have a map, I don't know where the NPCs are or what they're doing - then I'll use a skill challenge. In the abstract I think it's easier to maintain player agency with a skill challenge, but if you have concrete details then I think a skill challenge can harm player agency.
This is an interesting hypothesis that I don't think I've really tested.

I tend to play with a very loose sense of the situation - basic ideas about geography, NPCs etc - but tighten thinks up in the course of play and resolution. So most of the time my situations are like the "abstract" one you describe, and skill challenges work well for that.

But suppose I had drawn up a map with a river, a log falllen partway across it, a leaky raft on the other side, etc, and the goal of the situation was for the PCs to get across the river - then I'm not sure a skill challenge would work, because the metagaming that a skill challenge requires (in narrating consequences, introducing and managing complications, etc) seems at odd with the very concerete ingame details of the situation.

Would that be an example of what you have in mind?
 

I agree. It seems like a lot of people don't approach the game that way, and I wonder why. Assuming that's true, is there a flaw in the text somewhere, or is it something else?

A lack of candid, philosophical explanations in the beginning texts (particularly for those who have not been exposed to alternate rule-sets) + something else. I've said it in a few places. The largest hurdle I've seen for people running Skill Challenges is the predisposition of one of two (or a hybrid of both) mental frameworks/table agendas:

Gamist - "Skill Challenges are nothing more than the practice in dice rolling." They look at the construct from an optimization standpoint (what are my best Skills...yeah, I'll use those) and the GM caters to it by not facilitating otherwise.

Simulationist - "Skill Challenges are just complex Skill Checks." They hold that the result of each check should be a binary pass/fail interpretation that follows rigidly from coupled "cause and effect, PC internal-locus-of-control logic."

The most functional mental framework through which to run dynamic, fulfilling Skill Challenges is a hybrid of High Concept Sim (genre emulation be it Indiana Jones, Die Hard, Star Wars, Comic Books, LotR, what have you) + Narrative/Story Now agenda (Fiction First, Genre Logic interpretation of checks).

It seems that a decent chunk of D&D players have come from a mental framework/table agenda that is something of a hybrid of Gamist/Simulation. It logically follows that from that would emanate dry, boring, sameness, exercise in die rolling, jarring, nonsensical results and accompanying opinions.
 

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