Bigger and not better?

I am going to be participating in an upcoming Drow campaign and my character intends to undergo one of Lolth's infamous Tests with the outcome of becoming a drider(in the good way where you get all the cool bonuses and are half spider, but aren't a crazy, murderous psycho....at least not any more than a Drow is to begin with). The DM is cool with this, and we're using the WOTC Drider web(pun!)-template(http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20011118a). But I am confused. It states at several points that the creature's size increases by one from it's original size, but it does not specifically mention if that means I gain the large-size bonuses (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases). It does state further down some drider-specific bonuses, but I've seen a variety of templates wherein things become "large" but there is no mention of the bonuses from a size increase, nor an indication that they shouldn't get them.

Judging from the examples given at the bottom, my assumption is that you don't gain the bonuses from normal size-increases, only the drider-specific ones, but I'm not entirely sure how to dissect the stats of the given Hill Dwarf. A Hill Dwarf gains no bonuses to their STR, but the Drider template gives +4, with only a 15 str, I'm assuming either a 10 base+1(for being EL 6)+4 template or 11 base +4 template. Because a large creature would gain +8 str for it's size alone, in addition to +4 for the template, that would make it a 22 str at least.
*Personally, a 15 str on a EL 6 monstrous humanoid seems rather pathetic. That's your average starting score for a PC, particularly a fighter.

So, what say you? Am I right in thinking that if there is a size increase from medium to large, then those modifications should be compounded with the drider template? Or do templates wherein size changes occur but include modifiers of their own replace the normal modifiers gained? Most of the time when I see "increase size" on a template, it doesn't specify one way or the other? Should I just have my DM rule on this? Has there been an official ruling?

No, the drider doesn't get the ability mods for large size. Looking at the Drider in the MM shows it has stats of Str 15, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 15, Wis 16, Cha 16. If it was getting the large-size bonus to Strength, that means it would have had a racial modifier of -2, since all MM entries use base 10 or 11 for stats (3.5 DMG, p 110, "Elite and Average Characters"). Which make sense to me - it's not your drow parts that are getting bigger, it's that there's a spider growing out of where your butt used to be. As far as I've ever been able to tell (and this is with making two books of 200+ creatures), the stat modifiers are always baked into the template/race notes.

And a 15 Str isn't bad for a creature whose primary class is sorcerer.

Stormonu said:

No, the drider doesn't get the ability mods for large size. Looking at the Drider in the MM shows it has stats of Str 15, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 15, Wis 16, Cha 16. If it was getting the large-size bonus to Strength, that means it would have had a racial modifier of -2, since all MM entries use base 10 or 11 for stats (3.5 DMG, p 110, "Elite and Average Characters"). Which make sense to me - it's not your drow parts that are getting bigger, it's that there's a spider growing out of where your butt used to be. As far as I've ever been able to tell (and this is with making two books of 200+ creatures), the stat modifiers are always baked into the template/race notes.

And a 15 Str isn't bad for a creature whose primary class is sorcerer.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm not really worried about the particulars of the stat bumps, but it's been something that's confused me for a long time about size increases in templates.

No. There are a handful of modifiers that are specifically associated with size (a bonus/penalty to attack rolls and AC, a modifier to grapple checks, a modifier to Hide checks...). When a creature changes size, it automatically loses any modifiers associated with its old size and gains these new ones instead. However, although most Large creatures gain a Str bonus (and Dex penalty), this isn't specifically associated with the change in size, and so you don't get them for becoming a Drider.

If you like, correlation is not causation.

So here's a different template that got me wondering. The Sthein from Bastards and Bloodlines, it includes it's own stat modifers, but also says under the "Large" heading that the race gains "all the other normal effects of being Large creatures". What has be wondering is that the race has an ECL of +4, while giving out notably less than the Drider template. I realize of course that 3PP are under no obligation to balance out with WOTC products, but I simply find it off, especially considering the book came out in 2003, two years after the web-article Drider template.

Perhaps a better soul than I can explain why exactly this template/race costs two additional levels, for including the full benefits of Large size...I could see that, otherwise...

But hey if the answer is "3pp is as 3pp does" well I'll just have to run it by my DM then.

It's very likely they never saw the Drider web-article. Indeed, given that web-articles are not open material, it's entirely possible that they had a policy of specifically not looking at the WotC site.

Without being familiar with the specific template, I can't really say much more.

Unless a template specifically says it grants the size bonuses from the improving monsters section (Half Minotaur from Dragon 313 is one of the few) then it does not.

"If a template changes a creature’s size, use Table: Changes to Statistics by Size to calculate changes to natural armor, Armor Class, attack rolls, and grapple bonus." http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeandType

Changing your size based on a template only gives you the above changes (natural armor, armor class, attack rolls, and grapple bonus). You do not gain any ability score bonuses unless they are part of the template itself.