D&D 5E Paring the skill list

Kobold Stew

Last Guy in the Airlock
Supporter
So the skill list is too long, and what's more, it has some lame choices in it. Below are an initial offering of suggested tweaks. Thoughts?

1. roll Drive into Ride.
2. roll Balance into Tumble.
3. roll Spot and Listen together
4. Eliminate Search as a separate skill, but have a feat that grants a bonus to searching.
5. Eliminate Knowledge: Heraldry
6. Eliminate Perform as a skill, since it is also a Background trait.
7. Eliminate Disguise and make it a Rogue Skill trick, not a skill.
8. Is anyone interested in the Heal skill, when Herbalism exists? Maybe it can go too.
9. Clarify Knowledge: Warfare -- probably make it not a knowledge skill, but one of leadership and tactics (profession: tactician?)

10. I'd also like to make it a requirement that every background (even customized ones) have at least one Knowledge or Profession skill attached to it.


EDIT: suggestions updated in post 41 (top of p. 5).
 
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So the skill list is too long, and what's more, it has some lame choices in it. Below are an initial offering of suggested tweaks. Thoughts?

1. roll Drive into Ride.
2. roll Balance into Tumble.
3. roll Spot and Listen together
Yes
4. Eliminate Search as a separate skill, but have a feat that grants a bonus to searching.
No -- unless rolled into the combined "Perception", in which case yes.
5. Eliminate Knowledge: Heraldry
Yes
6. Eliminate Perform as a skill, since it is also a Background trait.
No; there should be a way to measure performance success.
7. Eliminate Disguise and make it a Rogue Skill trick, not a skill.
Yes
8. Is anyone interested in the Heal skill, when Herbalism exists? Maybe it can go too.
Not if Herbalism goes beyond healing-- potion making, for example.
9. Clarify Knowledge: Warfare -- probably make it not a knowledge skill, but one of leadership and tactics (profession: tactician?)

10. I'd also like to make it a requirement that every background (even customized ones) have at least one Knowledge or Profession skill attached to it.

Yes to both.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
So the skill list is too long, and what's more, it has some lame choices in it. Below are an initial offering of suggested tweaks. Thoughts?

1. roll Drive into Ride.
2. roll Balance into Tumble.
3. roll Spot and Listen together
4. Eliminate Search as a separate skill, but have a feat that grants a bonus to searching.
5. Eliminate Knowledge: Heraldry
6. Eliminate Perform as a skill, since it is also a Background trait.
7. Eliminate Disguise and make it a Rogue Skill trick, not a skill.
8. Is anyone interested in the Heal skill, when Herbalism exists? Maybe it can go too.
9. Clarify Knowledge: Warfare -- probably make it not a knowledge skill, but one of leadership and tactics (profession: tactician?)

10. I'd also like to make it a requirement that every background (even customized ones) have at least one Knowledge or Profession skill attached to it.

I disagree almost completely. The "skill list" should not be short, with extremely broad "skills". They should be much, much narrower. I've said it before and I'll keep saying it again... the broader the "skills", the more they overlap and thus destroy the concept of Ability Checks.

We ARE NOT making skill checks anymore. Everything we are doing are Ability Checks. And thus... THOSE give us our "broad" abilities. If you want your PC to be good at talking to people... having a high CHA modifier is the way to accomplish it. If you want to have a lot of knowledge in lots of many topics... you need a high INT. You want to be good at balancing, and tumbling, and stealth, and sleight of hand? Take a high DEX.

Thus... your four "skills" are meant to convey those very small, narrow, focuses that you are brilliant at, in and around your broad knowledge base of abilities. An Olympic high jumper is very athletic. Probably better than most people in most athletic competitions. Fast. Strong legs. Strong arms. In game, he would be listed as having a high STR mod. And thus, any checks the DM might ask him to make that involve any sorts of athletics... he would be better at because of his STR.

But what is he brilliant at? Best at than almost everybody? Jumping. He's spent his whole life focusing on jumping. Not sprinting. Not hurdles. Not shot put. Not shoot basketballs. Just jumping. And thus, he should have a skill of "Jumping" so that he gets a bonus over and above his general athletic ability. So that way we get both-- a way to denote his broad athleticism... his high STR... and his specific focus in one narrow area of expertise... his Jumping skill.

If you create a broad "skill" of Athletics... you pretty much duplicate and replace everything you would ever use your STR mod for. What's left? Bend bars? Great... the rarest of STR checks is by itself, while every other STR related check is replaced by Athletics. You'd never be making STR checks, because practically every single thing that would fall under a STR check would get covered by Athletics.

And the same could be said for "Diplomacy" and CHA. Every single interaction you might have that would be a CHA cheeck would get overwritten by Diplomacy. Diplomacy is also too broad. Bluff? Narrower and good. Intimidate? Narrower and good. Negotiate? Narrower and okay. Seduction? Narrower and good. But if you want to be able to talk to people... you shouldn't need Diplomacy, you should need a high CHA.

At the end of the day... any "skill" that would cover every single aspect of some ability check is too broad and should not be in the game in my opinion.
 

mlund

First Post
I want to see skills that aren't exclusive silos. I want to see traits like "persuasive," "shrewd," "commanding," "athletic," "shifty," or "deft" instead of uninspired bricks like "Perception," "Balance," and "intimidate."

- Marty Lund
 

Larrin

Entropic Good
swim and use rope are on my list. I know there are 'use rope' fans out there, but for me its too specific. Like having a skill for 'Staying up late at night'. Very useful, but tooooo narrow, or something. It just rankles me.

Conversely, swim is obviously a somewhat general, very useful skill, but it is literally the last skill I would ever chose because it comes up almost never, in my experience (and yes, I would take 'use rope' before swim). Taking training in swim is a gamble that the one time in my character's life he will make a swim check will be worth not being trained in something that would be useful 20-30 times in his career. I'm never going to do that. Also, most skills you can at least try to use if you put your mind to it. knowledge:heraldry could be used anytime you venture into civilized lands (the info might be useless, but at least you could use the skill). If you have drive buy a chariot or make a sled in the dungeon to ride down the stairs. With swim, if there isn't water (or water like stuff), you can't swim. That is +90% of the time ( in my experience). Unless you figure out a way to bring a portable raging river everywhere you go, at which point you're probably just being stubborn about the whole thing.
 


MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
swim and use rope are on my list. I know there are 'use rope' fans out there, but for me its too specific. Like having a skill for 'Staying up late at night'. Very useful, but tooooo narrow, or something. It just rankles me.

Conversely, swim is obviously a somewhat general, very useful skill, but it is literally the last skill I would ever chose because it comes up almost never, in my experience (and yes, I would take 'use rope' before swim). Taking training in swim is a gamble that the one time in my character's life he will make a swim check will be worth not being trained in something that would be useful 20-30 times in his career. I'm never going to do that. Also, most skills you can at least try to use if you put your mind to it. knowledge:heraldry could be used anytime you venture into civilized lands (the info might be useless, but at least you could use the skill). If you have drive buy a chariot or make a sled in the dungeon to ride down the stairs. With swim, if there isn't water (or water like stuff), you can't swim. That is +90% of the time ( in my experience). Unless you figure out a way to bring a portable raging river everywhere you go, at which point you're probably just being stubborn about the whole thing.

Wellm yes swim can be problematic, and you examples are funny and over the top, good ones. But the beauty about the current stand on skills is that you aran't forced to take a skill you don't want. If you don't want the skill you just don't take it, while the one who wants use rope can have it. As [MENTION=7006]DEFCON 1[/MENTION] said, skills are supossed to be speciffic. And yes Diplomacy is too broad, it actually is a mix of Bluff, Intimidate, Persuassion, Charm, Seduce, Hagglins, Mediation, Manners, etc. Easier to substract a skill you don't want than to make a new one from scratch.
 

Larrin

Entropic Good
At the end of the day... any "skill" that would cover every single aspect of some ability check is too broad and should not be in the game in my opinion.

Fair enough, but the granularity of a skill shouldn't be "as small as possible" and should be comparable (not equal, just comparable) between skills.

If we look at balance and tumble, for example. Balance is my ability to not fall down. Tumble is my ability to do several types of rolls, flips, requiring lots of control over my body, practice, and, somewhat Ironically, knowledge of how to fall. Balance is pretty narrow, tumble is pretty broad. It does not stretch my imagination that "Acrobatic stunts" actually includes balancing, would it make things 'too broad' if it were included? I feel it does not.


Too broad is apparently something they want to avoid, but too narrow (or too large of disparity between skills on how narrow/broad they are) is also worth avoiding. List like the OP made is worth looking at to see if there are things that are too zoomed in OR otherwise not benefiting the game.
 

Kobold Stew

Last Guy in the Airlock
Supporter
I disagree almost completely.

Hmm. I'm really not sure I understand the objection: Most characters are trained in four skills. The skill list is currently at 25, plus knowledge (9 categories), plus profession (infinite categories, though most characters would only want 1). So that's 4 of 35. I've suggested removing 8 of the 35.

Your comments make it sound like I'm reducing the skill list much more than that. Nothing is threatening ability checks. Skills remain the narrow focuses you describe. If anything, my requirement to ensure necessary coverage in knowledge or profession will, I feel, actually add to the diversity, not reduce it.

Your two arguments about jumping and diplomacy have nothing to do with my post. I did not suggest rolling Jump (or swim for that matter) into Athletics, nor all social skills into Diplomacy (truth be told, I actually want a diversity of charisma skills, to reduce its dump-stattedness).

At the end of the day any "skill" that would cover every single aspect of some ability check is too broad and should not be in the game in my opinion.

I agree with this, and have not suggested differently.
 

Jeff Carlsen

Adventurer
In a skill based system, I would agree with much of the original post. But [MENTION=7006]DEFCON 1[/MENTION] is right. Narrow skills with a small bonus is right for this game.
 

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