Developing a Zoom-In, Zoom-Out Mass Combat System

To charge the narrativist side of things, maybe it would be a good idea to pack the encounter deck based on the class/race/theme - and especially paragon path/epic destiny of the PCs. You'd build the deck based on those things, with an eye to challenging/asking questions about how the player relates to those PC build choices.

So if one guy has "Beastmaster" as his paragon path (and you'd need to know this in advance - but that's pretty standard with builds, a way that builds can be translated into game play), you might have encounter cards like "Horses go wild!" "Loose the beasts!" "The vultures are circling..." (wandering beasts check out the battlefield to scavenge the dead, could be enlisted...), etc. An eladrin PC might have "Seen this all before" "Sic transit gloria mundi" etc. You'd probably want to build the encounter itself based on these build choices... maybe a deck that builds the encounter based on PC build choices? Don't know, just an idea.

@LostSoul

That is an absolutely fantastic idea. Right now I'm having the PCs each draw a card at the end of the round and the card either works as a narrative/gamist element that immediately is played to affect some portion of play with respect to their units...or they draw a Utility card that they can keep and play at their discretion. It is a universal encounter deck. That was one area that I was struggling with as I wanted to keep the cards short, clear and specific...however, a universal deck made that a challenge.

Your idea above (to pack the deck with the specific PC-side elements - class/race/theme/paragon path/epic destiny) helps me out with my other issue as well. I think if there are multiple decks, one for each player, it will solve the above issue. You'd just need a lot of duplications of general encounter cards (which are focused on specific elements however - eg morale) and several discreet terrain/unit/complication cards that would go in each PCs deck that possesses such terrain/units and complication potential under their control. Along with that can go their own PC-specific cards.

That helps in two ways. Thank you very much.

Manbearcat said:

Don't take your hat off yet!

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So, I can leave my hat on?

Manbearcat said:

I want it to feel like the heroes are engaged in a fast-paced, action-packed, high stakes mass combat. I want it to be going on around them. I want the mechanical resolution to be quick but meaningful and impactful. I want the heroes contribution to be meaningful and impactful. This is why unification of action economy and all function of processes (time, space, etc) should not be (as it would violate 1 or more of the above) a match between Zone In and Zone Out. Given the number of Zones and Units that will be in play (if someone were to use this), it would be a logistical nightmare and bog the game down fiercely.

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I mean this in the politest possible way: this feels like a cop-out of an answer. I wholly agree with the goals, but if that means ignoring the time-space continuum, then why make a zoomed-out square equal to 30 squares? And why quantify anything? Just roll a few dice, adjust for PC actions and have the DM narrate the outcome. No need for any added-on rules at all.

My impression of this is that it gives the players a tad more control over the battlefield. Quantifying time is just like any of the other rules you wrote up. Two zoomed-in rounds for the PCs, one zoomed-out with the battlefield units (or whatever you decide to go with), is a way of tracking where everyone is at a given moment.

@Ferghis No offense taken. I understand your concern here and why you sense that it may be a "cop-out."

Here is my thinking behind making it 30 * 30 and not being too terribly concerned with timekeeping constraints:

1) My primary concern is a Gamist one where I didn't want it to be too small such that it would be easy for PCs to stand in the middle of their Zoomed In Zone and interact with all of the adjacent Zoomed Out Zones. That would be a problem for mental overhead and handling time (Zooming In and Out all the time) which would conflict with one of my primary tenets. It could still be done but it would be difficult and a corner case and only 1 or 2 classes could accomplish it regularly. With that size, its much more likely that PCs will be dealing with their own Zoomed In Zone and then move on. Further, they will be able to move between zones at a reasonable (but not too quick) pace.
2) A rough area of 4.5 square miles is feasible for a large scale skirmish (a mass combat) featuring 2-3 units to take place. Again, this is only roughly. We can call it a bit bigger than 30 * 30 if we'd like.
3) Harkening back to the spirit of good ole D&D abstraction, time (rounds in AD&D at roughly 1 minute), exact location within the 5 foot area you occupy, flurries and parries in a round abstracted into one roll etc...well, it seems the easiest way to accomplish most of the tenets and have fun ever round is to just abstract time in Zoomed Out.

That being said, we could certainly up the damage expressions for the Zoomed Out units and have the action only take place every other round if keeping time precise (and not abstract) is an issue. But we would be losing the FUN of playing it out every turn! Your concern may be a good one though and every other round and upped damage expressions may be a better way to handle things. It would certainly be quicker.

If, of course, it does turn out to be fun in the first place!

Any chance of changing that font colour? I can't read the yellow on white background.

Morrus said:

Any chance of changing that font colour? I can't read the yellow on white background.

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Certainly. Orange compatible with your background?

In light of @Ferghis recommendation, I've been pondering a means to give units sensible, intuitive and minimal overhand movement functionality. The below changes to Zoomed Out Mass Combat Units have been made (bolded, italicized). I believe this will likely address that issue and do it elegantly. Effectively almost all units will require 2 Actions to move from one zone to another. For instance: If an Orc Berserkers unit wishes to move to an adjacent zone (for whatever reason), they would spend their 1 action to move to the zone boundary; you would move it from the middle of the zone to the boundary line of the adjacent zone that it wishes to move to. Then in the following round (or whenever), it would spend its 1 action to move to the adjacent zone. Other ways to move will be Utility Cards (first gained) played, Encounter Cards (that either force movement upon 1 or all units in the zone or allow the player to move to a Zone Boundary as a free action), or Terrain which may buff certain units.

Mass Combat Units will have a Defense, HPs, 1 Healing Surge, Initiative, and 2 At-Will Attacks. Their Action Economy consists of 1 action; At-Will Attack (damage + rider), Spend Healing Surge, Move: Zone Boundary;Adjacent Zone (Cavalry will have Move: 1 Zone and Scouts will have Move to Zone Edge/Switch Zone as a rider to one of their At-Wills). There are 5 locations within a zone that a unit can occupy: the middle, any of the 4 boundaries. Unit Attacks will have a range of melee (their current position in the zone) unless otherwise noted in their At-Will Attacks (* Special). Units will have Keyword driven roles that dictate their stats: Artillery, Cavalry, Horde, Infantry, Scouts, Siege Team. Sample Enemy Unit:

Orc Berserkers (Horde)
Def: 12 HP: 16 HS: 8 Init: 12 Move: Zone Boundary;Adjacent Zone

Another quick update. Here are the units I've been using to test. No Siege Teams right now. I'll post an update with the Terrain (buffs to specific unit types) and Encounter Cards (general events, utilities and PC specific cards) at some point this week.

GOOD GUYS (YAAAAAAAAAAY!)

Halfling Outriders (Cavalry)
Def: 14 HP: 12 HS: 6 Init: 14 Move: 1 Zone

Trample - At Will
Effect: The Halfling Outriders can move anywhere in its zone.
Attack: + 5
Hit: 2 damage and the enemy unit is immobilized (save ends).

Rally the Cause - At Will
Attack: + 5
Hit: 1 damage and the Outriders unit can move to a zone boundary (or adjacent zone if already on the zone boundary).
Effect: One allied unit in a zone adjacent to the Outriders gains 1 HP.


Elven Archers (Artillery)
Def: 13 HP: 8 HS: 4 Init: 15 Move: Zone Boundary/Adjacent Zone

Volley - At Will
Special:
Elven Archers can attack at any enemy unit in its zone and enemy units in any adjacent zone.
Attack: + 7
Hit: 3 damage

Covering Fire - At Will
Special: Elven Archers can attack at any enemy unit in its zone and enemy units in any adjacent zone.
Attack: + 7
Hit: 2 damage and an ally unit can move to a zone boundary/adjacent zone.


Dwarven Phalanx (Infantry)
Def: 16 HP: 16 HS: 8 Init: 10 Move: Zone Boundary/Adjacent Zone

Shield Wall - At Will
Attack: + 5
Hit: 1 damage and the Dwarven Phalanx gains resist 1 to all damage and immunity to forced movement.

Repel the Charge - At Will
Attack: + 6
Hit: 1 damage and the enemy unit is forced to a zone boundary/adjacent zone.


Human Rangers (Scouts)
Def: 14 HP: 8 HS: 4 Init: 15 Move: 1 Zone

Ambush and Scatter - At Will
Special: Human Rangers can attack any enemy unit in its zone.
Attack: + 7
Hit: 2 damage and the Human Rangers unit is removed from play. On the beginning of its next turn it appears on any zone boundary in the zone of origin.

Reconnaissance - At Will
Special: The Human Rangers unit can move to one adjacent zone.
Effect: Any ally unit in the zone gains combat advantage and a + 2 to damage on its next attack.


BAD GUYS (BOOOOOOOO!)

Goblin Worg-Riders (Cavalry)
Def: 13 HP: 12 HS: 6 Init: 16 Move: 1 Zone

Pack of Fangs - At-Will
Attack: + 6
Hit: 2 damage and attacks against the enemy unit have combat advantage (save ends).

Rabid Charge - At-Will
Effect: The Goblin Worg-Riders can move anywhere in its zone.
Attack: + 6
Hit: 1 damage and the enemy unit is forced to a zone boundary/adjacent zone.
Effect: The Goblin Worg-Riders can move to any zone boundary (or adjacent zone if on a zone boundary).


A Score of Hill Giants (Infantry)
Def: 13 HP: 20 HS: 10 Init: 8 Move: Zone Boundary/Adjacent Zone

Crush Puny Men - At Will
Attack: + 6
Hit: 2 damage and the enemy unit is forced to a zone boundary/adjacent zone.

Hurl Rocks - At Will
Special: A Score of Hill Giants can Hurl Rocks at any enemy unit in its zone.
Attack: + 5
Hit: 2 damage.


Orc Berserkers (Horde)
Def: 12 HP: 16 HS: 8 Init: 12 Move: Zone Boundary/Adjacent Zone

Reckless Abandon - At Will
Attack: + 5
Hit: 3 damage and the Orc Berserkers unit takes 1 damage.

Furious Assault - At Will
Attack: + 5
Hit: 1 damage and the Orc Berserkers unit forces the enemy unit to any zone boundary (or adjacent zone if already on the zone boundary) and can then move to that same zone boundary (or adjacent zone if already on the zone boundary).

Still can't xp you, but I'm still really liking this.