Let the Ringbearer decide...

Cor Azer · Jan 23, 2013

I've been playing LEGO Lord of the Rings recently, and just passed the part where the Fellowship is prevented from using the pass of Caradhras and chooses instead the Mines of Moria. (This discussion isn't limited to the game; that just happened to be what made me think of the scene)

And with that line, Gandalf the Grey proves to be a monumental jerk.

He knows something bad lurks in Moria, and yet allows - even forces - the decision on reluctant Frodo without supplying all the relevant info.

Truly, two situations are likely - someone else in the Fellowship will die, or Gandalf will sacrifice himself to save the rest of the group (although that's not much different than scenario 1). Either way, dear ol' Frodo gets to live with the guilt of having made that decision. Wonderful chap, that Gandalf.

Is there any other way to interpret Gandalf's actions at that point in the story? How is it fair to force Frodo to make an uninformed decision, simply because his uncle outwitted some other poor creature decades earlier?

Umbran · Jan 23, 2013

Jerk? No. Just afraid of dying.

He knows the mines are the group's only real hope. He also knows that whatever is in there was enough to destroy an entire kingdom. Being, in essence, a low-ranked angel, he knows the number of things that could do that are limited. If he hasn't actually pegged it as a balrog, he knows that it is something of that class. Capable of killing even him.

It is one thing to die bravely in combat, like, say Boromir does. It is another thing to willfully choose to slowly walk into the mouth of death when even having to consider death is something you almost never have to do. Instead of it being Gandalf being a jerk, think of it as the one time in the story that Gandalf shows human weakness, the one time when Gandalf needs help, rather than gives it. He's been making decisions for everybody else since Thorin's quest. For a change, he needs someone to do the same for him, someone to move him to do the needful thing, despite the risk.

Grogg of the North · Jan 23, 2013

In the movie the fellowship was under attack from Saruman who was trying to bring down the mountain. In the book, they were stuck in a blizzard and couldn't take neither the High Pass, because it was being watched nor the Gap of Rohan, which would bring them too close to Isengard.

I suppose Gandalf's thinking would have been that if they could remain undetected, they could avoid all the goblins in Moria along with the Balrog. But Pippin fixed that.

The other question is, how much did Aragorn know since he apparently passed through the mines prior to The Fellowship. So not only is Gandalf a jerk for not sharing all the information but so is Aragorn.

Finally, this.
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=740

billd91 · Jan 24, 2013

Both Aragorn and Gandalf had been there before and neither, apparently, knew for certain what Durin's Bane was - so they're not jerks for not revealing that. Both had gone in and come out, so clearly Moria had been survivable, though Aragorn called the memory evil counseled not going back. It's not certain that orcs have retaken the place though the colony of dwarves who went to retake Moria had not been heard from. And in the book, most of these issues are discussed before Boromir presses Frodo for his thoughts on the matter. So how Gandalf and Aragorn end up as jerks in the exchange, I don't really see.

And in the book, the decision is even forced by more wolf threats, so not much jerk going on.

ShogunAssassin · Jan 24, 2013

Gandalf is the man in my opinion, the choice was either certain death or a fun surprise in moria ;p

MarkB · Jan 26, 2013

There's another aspect worth considering. Gandalf doesn't know for certain the path the Fellowship will take ahead, but he does know that not all of them are committed to making the journey to Mordor, and he's probably sufficiently aware of the Ring's influence to know that it will start to work upon the members of the Fellowship.

So he knows that Frodo is going to have to make some agonisingly tough choices further down the road, usually with little clear counsel and limited knowledge of the paths ahead. Perhaps he foresaw something like Frodo's decision at the Falls of Rauros, perhaps not. But either way, he knows that Frodo needs to start taking his destiny into his own hands and making the decisions that will change the fate of his companions.

So "Let the Ringbearer decide" may be seen as practice for the later, even weightier decisions.

Janx · Jan 27, 2013

billd91 said:
Both Aragorn and Gandalf had been there before and neither, apparently, knew for certain what Durin's Bane was - so they're not jerks for not revealing that. Both had gone in and come out, so clearly Moria had been survivable, though Aragorn called the memory evil counseled not going back. It's not certain that orcs have retaken the place though the colony of dwarves who went to retake Moria had not been heard from. And in the book, most of these issues are discussed before Boromir presses Frodo for his thoughts on the matter. So how Gandalf and Aragorn end up as jerks in the exchange, I don't really see.

And in the book, the decision is even forced by more wolf threats, so not much jerk going on.

How come in all the time outside the door then, NOBODY took the time to tell Gimli then? Part of the party has information, even basic information, that the other party doesn't.

How hard is it to say, "I wouldn't be so sure about that banquet dude. I was here last month, they're all dead."

billd91 · Jan 27, 2013

Janx said:
How come in all the time outside the door then, NOBODY took the time to tell Gimli then? Part of the party has information, even basic information, that the other party doesn't.

How hard is it to say, "I wouldn't be so sure about that banquet dude. I was here last month, they're all dead."

Both of them refer to being there many years before... Pretty clearly implied to be before Balin and company tried to recolonize.