Pathfinder 1E Condensing the skills list

VelvetViolet · Feb 1, 2013

I feel that Pathfinder didn't go far enough to condense the skill list. My reason for condensing skills is to give players more reasons to place skill points in many skills. Too many skills means means that most are too niche for players to invest in. This skill list is partly based on these house rules.

New	Old
Agility	Acrobatics Escape Artist Fly Ride
Athletics	Climb Swim
Deception	Bluff Disguise
Diplomacy	Diplomacy
Heal	Heal
Intimidate	Intimidate
Intuition	Sense Motive Use Magic Device [Any class that has Use Magic Device listed as a class skill now has this ability as a class feature.]
Knowledge (arcana)	Knowledge (arcana) Spellcraft [arcane spells only]
Knowledge (dungeoneering)	Knowledge (dungeoneering) Knowledge (engineering) Survival [underground only]
Knowledge (local)	Knowledge (geography) Knowledge (history) Knowledge (local) Knowledge (nobility)
Knowledge (nature)	Handle Animal Knowledge (nature) Survival
Knowledge (planes)	Knowledge (planes) Survival [other planes only]
Knowledge (religion)	Knowledge (religion) Spellcraft [divine spells only]
Perception	Perception
Perform	Perform
Profession	Appraise Craft Profession
Research	Linguistics
Stamina
Stealth	Stealth
Thievery	Disable Device Sleight of Hand

Kinak · Feb 1, 2013

Looks pretty solid. I particularly like getting a Research skill.

I will admit I'm a little surprised to see Appraise still up there. It seems like something that could be easily folded into Knowledge (local) or the Knowledge/Profession appropriate for the object.

Cheers!
Kinak

VelvetViolet · Feb 2, 2013

Kinak said:
I will admit I'm a little surprised to see Appraise still up there. It seems like something that could be easily folded into Knowledge (local) or the Knowledge/Profession appropriate for the object.

I suppose it should be possible to fold Appraise into Profession just like Craft was.

N'raac · Feb 2, 2013

So, a Rogue would likely want:

Raneth said:
New Old

Agility Acrobatics [Balance and Tumble only]
Escape Artist
Fly
Ride

Athletics Acrobatics [Jump only]
Climb
Swim

Deception Bluff
Disguise

Diplomacy Diplomacy

Intuition Sense Motive
Use Magic Device [Any class that has Use Magic Device listed as a class skill now has this ability as a class feature.]

Knowledge (local)
Knowledge (geography)
Knowledge (history)
Knowledge (local)
Knowledge (nobility) Can't find the local fence without knowing the King's lineage, when the wars were fought and which river goes where!

Perception Perception

Profession

Appraise Probably not - no ability to broadly appraise loot
Craft
Profession

Stealth Stealth

Thievery Disable Device
Sleight of Hand

10 skills - 14 INT and I can max them all out. Nice for that high INT human wizard too - no problem covering the whole Knowledge suite.

VelvetViolet · Feb 2, 2013

N'raac said:
So, a Rogue would likely want:

10 skills - 14 INT and I can max them all out. Nice for that high INT human wizard too - no problem covering the whole Knowledge suite.

If you're looking to broadly appraise loot, then maybe Profession (merchant) would be appropriate.

VelvetViolet · Feb 2, 2013

I've added the Stamina skill as the Constitution counterpart to Agility (Dex) and Athletics (Str), bringing the skill list to an even twenty (fifteen if Knowledge is counted as a single skill).

EDIT: Acrobatics has been moved to Agility in full.

SkidAce · Feb 2, 2013

A good analysis and I respect your work.

I however run into a brick wall mentally almost immediately.

How do I create my acrobatic non-riding character if my high agility skill covers both?

So good job, and I understand your goal (i think).

Matthias · Feb 3, 2013

When Meddling with skills you have to keep in mind what activities you want to emphasize and what actions are meant to be iconic for the game. Folding thiefly skills into one big tent is all nice and good but you sacrifice flavor for the sake of making the game mechanics "better". For this reason I would prefer appraise to remain its own skill ("Ooh, treasure! How much is it worth?") as well as Use Magic Device ("So, it's magical, huh? I bet I can figure out how to wake it up!"), just to name two examples.

I would go so far as to say every campaign setting should pretty much have its own defined set of skills, like it would have its own pantheon, its own cultures, etc. If your Reworking of the standard skills works for your playing style, great, I hope it works. I still kind of miss the extra Hide/Move Silently and Search/Listen/Spot divisions. This is in spite of the reasons for the mergers, which I do understand. It seemed to me, however, that these changes made it less heroic to be explorers or thiefy characters by making it easier to be good at it.

Its hyperbole to suggest it, but we should watch out for the inevitable serious suggestion by someone someday to collapse all skills into their base abilities--just 6 (or 5) "skills" to choose from, can't get any simpler than that. It will be the sign of the end of purposefully inefficient game design. People will build the most effective character only, instead of the most interesting, flawed, or mixed bag type of character.

N'raac · Feb 3, 2013

I think any significant adjustment to the skills list needs to incorporate the skill points available. What skills are most appropriate to each class (possibly also race)? What proportion of those appropriate skills should a character of that class possess, assuming they are max'ed out? The number of skills and the skill points per level need to work together.

The goal might be that no one is good at everything, so maybe there are a dozen skills that may be most appropriate for Rogues, and they get 8 skill points. Or perhaps we think the Rogue should have all of the appropriate skills, so we either combine enough skills to get down to 8, or give him 12 skill points per level (assuming we think the base rogue has a 10 INT - that would be another factor to consider, left out for simplicity - more an issue for INT based casters, obviously). At that number, the design suggests Rogues should be good at all these core skills, but if they want a non-core skill, that would either come from an INT bonus or trading off one of their core skills.

The first question is how we want the game to work in theory. The mechanics, including the skill list and the skill points per level, should implement that vision.

Jester David · Feb 3, 2013

This has the same problems 4e had with its skill list.

First, you get pirates born on the sea who have never been above sea level being master mountain climbers, and the reverse of steppe dwellers who have only see small creeks being master swimmers.
It also removes much opportunity for classic ability checks. With a "Strength-based skill" that covers everything Strengthy, why make a Strength check ever when you can just make an Athletics check. You're trained at Athletics, you know how to use your strength and position yourself for lifting objects, why can't you use that to batter down doors or bend bars?

The only Skills I haven't seen much use for are Escape Artist and Knowledge (geography) as the former works nicely as a Dex check and the latter overlaps with Knowledge (local) more often than not. Knowledge (geography) often just becomes Knowledge (local) when you're in an unfamiliar land.
Appraise could also be folded into Craft without issue.
Any more than that and you're better off doing what 5e does and just having ability checks for anything physical and leaving skills as mental only.