The Bar'ds Nuclear Option

I have a problem. My Bard is severely overpowered in one area (maybe two). Yeah, I know, an overpowered Bard isn't a complaint you hear very often.

At 15th level he has 16 Skill ranks in Perform. Add a +6 Charisma bonus, a magical instrument, a racial modifier, bonuses from a couple of Feats and a Headband of Persuasion, and his total bonus is +30. He can bump that by +4 with a couple of buffs if he needs to.

That makes the Will save DC for his Fascinate effect 40 or so, presuming he rolls an average number.

In play, the DM threw a couple of Spineosaur (MMII blobs of hit points and damage type monsters) at us.

Bard plays, and "Music hath charms to soothe the savage breast". Even with the penalties for them being not even remotely human, the Save DC was one they needed a Nat-20 to make. (Note that these penalties are DM option, not in the rules.)

So a CR 14 challenge became an effective CR 0, as we simply walked past the monsters anc continued on our way. And the Bard can do that 15 times a day.

Now any DM can put monsters out that are immune to Mind Affecting abilities, but short of that there really aren't a lot of things at our level that have a snowball's chance of resisting that power.

The Bard doesn't have his Perform maxed, and even if we tossed out all the feats and item bonuses, the average Save DC would still be in the low to mid 30s. Still not achievable by most opponents.

How would you, as a DM or as a player, curb that power, in a fair and balanced way?

(The other overpowered ability he has is +3 on Diplomacy, but that's another topic.)

The ability only lasts so long as the bard continues to play and concentrate, it fixes the subject's attention firmly upon him, and it has a limited range. It also, presumably, is easy for any other creatures in the area to hear.

So, how exactly are the characters walking past the monster and continuing on their way? Even assuming that the bard is able to continue walking along a jungle path whilst simultaneously concentrating upon his tune and maintaining eye contact with the beast, the moment he gets beyond 90 feet it'll be free of the effect and after him like a shot, requiring another application of the effect to subdue it.

Also, I don't know about Spineosaurs, but a Tyrannosaur could charge 80 feet in a single turn, so unless the bard is at or near the back of the party it'd still be within striking distance when the effect wore off.

Concentration doesn't preclude normal movement. You can't double move or cast any spells, but simply walking away is hardly a challenge.

And while the ability says that the character can maintain it a maximum of one round per Bard level, and that it can affect anyone within hearing range, I'm not aware of any hard definition of "hearing range". 90 feet sounds reasonable, of course, but it would really depend on the instrument. (Drums can be heard for miles, as an example).

Also, the ability doesn't require "eye contact", nor does the Bard need to maintain any line of sight. In fact, it doesn't say that that's a requirement to even begin the effect, although it makes sense that the Bard needs to be aware of who or what he or she is trying to influence.

What does shut it down is any combat or conflict in the area. Silence kills it. Sending more monsters than the Bard can Fascinate is an answer (Mine can do 5 creatures at once, each requiring a separate Perform roll.)

But any scene involving a small number of big critters becomes a walkover. A scene with a larger number of smaller critters is a resource drain, but still not much of a threat when it comes down to it.

Greenfield said:

How would you, as a DM or as a player, curb that power, in a fair and balanced way?

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In addition to what MarkB points out, the fascinate text says that targets who see obvious threats (drawn weapons, finger-wiggling, etc.) automatically break free from the effect. (Though that still leaves a lot of opportunity for sneak-attack gankings.)

As a DM you could change the DC to 10 + 1/2 bard level + Cha mod, which is a bit harder to jack up.

But really, this is high level 3.x! It's all about playing the elaborate rock-paper-scissors minigame with the DM, and fascinate is just one of those weapons.

That's the problem with fascinate. It either works 'like a charm', or it doesn't. The latter most probably because the rest of the party can't resist the urge to start a combat.

A DM could roll a hidden, secondary check to determine whether or not the sound drives the monster berserk. Perhaps the Bugbear tribe only knows of Drums as instruments of war, so they're instantly aggressive, instead of passive. Maybe the Ogre hates flutes. Maybe the Red Dragon doesn't like orators.

These "checks" (we'll call them a flat DC25 Will save) would add +10 to their saving throw against your Fascinate. A check rolled under 5 grants them a -10, because they absolutely love the sight of your tap dancing.

Using this system, your DC40ish can be turned into a DC30, which is within range of most higher CR creatures. Adding in your DM's penalty for being not-remotely-human (I imagine it was a -10, or so) would turn it down even lower, making it possible for weak willed creatures, but unlikely for stronger willed ones.

Greenfield said:

I have a problem. My Bard is severely overpowered in one area (maybe two). Yeah, I know, an overpowered Bard isn't a complaint you hear very often.

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In play, the DM threw a couple of Spineosaur (MMII blobs of hit points and damage type monsters) at us.

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3rd Edition monsters really needed roles

Even without your bard, that encounter would have gone nowhere. Dinosaurs simply aren't intelligent enough to pose a threat to the heroes. That's especially the case with spellcasters, who could do anything from fly over them to cast Hold Monster. In fact, because dinosaurs aren't intelligent, they're more obstacles than opponents. Causing them to panic with Glitterdust (or Fear) and then run or fly past them "defeats" the encounter. It's not like the dinosaurs are likely to pursue. (I would say there's easier food, but I don't know what a spineosaur is. A carnivore? Herbivore?)

"Roles" would let a DM cover "all" bases without necessarily making NPC parties (which tend to be a pain to generate, unless you're using the NPC Codex, I imagine).

How would you, as a DM or as a player, curb that power, in a fair and balanced way?

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Maybe this is my interpretation, but I thought you could only use Fascinate outside of combat. Once initiative is rolled, that's the end of it. (You could Fascinate someone to distract them, but once your party rogue has gutted one surprised opponent, initiative gets rolled.)

Because those dinos aren't really opponents, Fascinating them and just walking past them is, IMO, a perfectly valid way of dealing with the encounter.

(The other overpowered ability he has is +3 on Diplomacy, but that's another topic.)

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Consult the Giant in the Playground Diplomacy house rule, and use skill challenges too. (In a Kingmaker campaign, our oracle could give +10 to any skill check once per day, making negotiation simple. If multiple Diplomacy checks were called for, it wouldn't have been so overpowering. Also, our "opponents" had terrible Diplomacy scores to begin with.)

Out of curiousity (don't have my books nearby) but is there any clause that precludes other PCs being affected? If it triggers off of hearing, unless PCs take care to stuff their own ears, could be they are affected as well (1E/2E spells had a lot of this, but some of it got dropped in 3E. Sleep spell used to be notoriously dangerous in this regard).

Greenfield said:

Concentration doesn't preclude normal movement. You can't double move or cast any spells, but simply walking away is hardly a challenge.

And while the ability says that the character can maintain it a maximum of one round per Bard level, and that it can affect anyone within hearing range, I'm not aware of any hard definition of "hearing range". 90 feet sounds reasonable, of course, but it would really depend on the instrument. (Drums can be heard for miles, as an example).

Also, the ability doesn't require "eye contact", nor does the Bard need to maintain any line of sight. In fact, it doesn't say that that's a requirement to even begin the effect, although it makes sense that the Bard needs to be aware of who or what he or she is trying to influence.

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Quoting from the v3.5 SRD:

Each creature to be fascinated must be within 90 feet, able to see and hear the bard, and able to pay attention to him. The bard must also be able to see the creature.

EDIT: Admittedly, it doesn't outright state that these are ongoing requirements, but as DM I'd tend to treat them as such.

This was a bunch of unintelligent dinosaurs. Getting past them shouldn't have been that hard anyway.

So a CR 14 challenge became an effective CR 0, as we simply walked past the monsters anc continued on our way. And the Bard can do that 15 times a day.

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You should have tamed them, which would have been awesome. If I were the DM, I would have had them follow you around while you played.

On the other hand, for a more mechanical solution, you need to change the DC for the fascinate ability. Make it 10 + half the bard's level + his Charisma modifier.