Nobility Domain Re-Vist

Maidhc O Casain · Mar 1, 2013

I vaguely remember the discussion about leadership, and that it was decided not to allow cohorts, but can't find it now. It was in the early days, when we were still getting the basic framework down, so it would be in the social group. My guess - like that of others here - is that the ruling did not get ported over to the wiki.

My argument against it is twofold - the class feature vs feat argument has already been voiced adequately, and I second what Systole had to say about that.

My second argument is that those "extras" granted by the class features - Eidolons, Animal Companions, etc. have some very specific things they can do and not do and these things have been taken into account when designing the class.

A cohort can be created from any class and race combination legal for PCs - so they can be tailor made to make up for "deficiencies" in the PC, or to greatly enhance their strengths (see Systole's example of the Transmutation Specialist above).

I'm still reading for new discussion, but at this point my vote is NO.

GlassEye · Mar 1, 2013

Songdragon, your proposal is just for reinstating the Nobility domain to its original state, correct? I think whether or not Leadership is an available feat is peripheral to the request and only mentioned because it wasn't explicitly stated on the wiki as being prohibited. Leadership as a feat is a separate discussion from this one that, admittedly, affects this discussion. I feel like this proposal is being dismissed based on the effects of Leadership available to everyone as a feat.

Considering just the proposal made by Songdragon (and continuing with our mutual assumption that Leadership in general is prohibited):

• Leadership IS a class feature. As such, it would be available to a very select group of characters: 8th+ level clerics with the Nobility domain (possibly Inquisitors, but I'm not sure about that). So we're NOT discussing a scenario that allows for a fighter to take Leadership with a feat and end up with a transmutation wizard cohort. Nor will we end up with every character in LPF having Leadership much like not everyone has gotten an intelligent item since those rules were approved.

• Who controls the cohort? The Leadership feat says the cohort is an NPC. Personally, I think that means the DM is supposed to control the cohort and I would agree with Perrinmiller that I don't want to mess with that as a DM. However, I don't object to the player controlling the cohort with the caveat that the DM could take control of the cohort when she deems it necessary.

• Flexibility of a cohort build vs. specific 'tasks' other companion types are designed for. This is an interesting point. Eidolons are pretty darn flexible, though, and can gain a whole lot more in the way of supernatural powers than a cohort could. And some of the upper level familiars are pretty flexible, too.

• Plus, intelligent items are available. Isn't that just a cohort you can buy with gold pieces?

I think specific issues could be worked out so that this is possible.

Maidhc O Casain · Mar 1, 2013

All good points, GE. I hadn't really thought about it from the standpoint of allowing the class feature without making the feat generally available.

Systole · Mar 1, 2013

I would argue that an eidolon is not a good comparison to a cohort, because while eidolons are flexible, they can't heal and they can't buff. And intelligent items don't act independently of the PC (as in, a whole 'nother set of actions).

The point that it is a class feature available to only certain PCs is well-taken, but I'm still dubious at best about the whole thing.

perrinmiller · Mar 2, 2013

Yes, my no is for Leadership as an allowable feat. Two years ago when I joined, it was on a list somewhere that it was not allowed. I had used the LPF rules as a framework myself for another game.

Still, the evidence is there in the modification of the Nobility Domain. So as far as I am concerned Leadership Feat has been banned from the beginning, regardless what the current list says.

I am looking at the big picture here, Leadership opens up a can of worms that impacts time on the Judges part. Same with DMs which in many cases is the same people. Time is a valuable commodity around here since we lack enough DMs to run games for the all the players.

While as a player of Borric I would love to allow Zelena to have a cohort. Even if that burden would not fall on me to approve the character build and deal with as DM, I still have to vote NO to Leadership in General.

But, if it is allowed only for those unlocking it with Nobility Domain sticking it in a category of class feature for very specific builds I could be persuaded to make an exception, provided that we are not setting a precedent to overturn the allowance of Leadership Feat being completely allowed as a General Feat.