Muhlatimic Dragons

Upper_Krust · Apr 12, 2013

Hey Fiery DragonLord amigo!

FieryDragonLord said:
Couldn't you just make one 64 page book?

As Rhuarc points out. the higher the page count the longer something will take and the greater chance of interuptions affecting the schedule even further.

Anyway I like this plan, so post-Vampire Bestiary thats what I'll do, even if the title of the books may change.

Betrayor · Apr 15, 2013

I understand that the topic has a new direction but I had a question on the original post,
just to be sure what is the divine status of Muhlatimic Dragons?
I gathered that it is between a highlord and the supreme being,
or I misunderstood?

Khisanth the Ancient · Apr 16, 2013

Betrayor said:
I understand that the topic has a new direction but I had a question on the original post,
just to be sure what is the divine status of Muhlatimic Dragons?
I gathered that it is between a highlord and the supreme being,
or I misunderstood?

Going by U_K's list on page 2 (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...ragons/page2&p=6104146&viewfull=1#post6104146) yes, that's right.

Or rather they'd be "Supernal Dragons", but at least in 3.X IH, the Nehaschimics ("Eternal" Dragons) and I think the Adamics ("Sidereal" Dragons) were less powerful than Eternals and Sidereals overall, though of equivalent divine bonus.

Upper_Krust · Apr 16, 2013

hey there Betrayor!

Betrayor said:
I understand that the topic has a new direction but I had a question on the original post,
just to be sure what is the divine status of Muhlatimic Dragons?
I gathered that it is between a highlord and the supreme being,
or I misunderstood?

What you have to remember is that Dragons, because of their power-to-age dynamic, actually span a few tiers and thus cover a spread of divinity.

For me, true (ie. basic) dragons should not be epic. The greatest of 'Earthly' dragons should maybe be about Level 20 (solo) monsters. A few levels over that wouldn't hurt, but Level 30 for an ancient Red or Gold dragon seems way too much in my opinion.

Ancient Epic Dragons (effectively Dragon "Gods") should be adversaries for the Epic Tier.

Ancient Cosmic Dragons (Space Dragons) should be adversaries primarily for the Immortal Tier (31-40) but with Super-solo Stat-blocks we can knock a few Levels off that. So that they could still be foes for the end of the Epic Tier.

Ancient Escatolic Dragons (Doomsday Dragons) should be foes for the Sidereal Tier (41-50).

Ancient Muhlatimic Dragons (Polemic (?) Dragons) should be enemies for the Eternal Tier (51-60)

That means when your PCs are all time lords, Ancient Muhlatimic Dragons are the sort of enemies you should be facing.

Hope that helps.

Betrayor · Apr 16, 2013

Thank you guys for the answers they were really helpful,even if I don't really play 4.0 since I like 3.x better and players in my region deteste 4.0 with a passion nevertheless I appreciate the insight......

FieryDragonLord · Apr 17, 2013

Upper_Krust said:
For me, true (ie. basic) dragons should not be epic. The greatest of 'Earthly' dragons should maybe be about Level 20 (solo) monsters. A few levels over that wouldn't hurt, but Level 30 for an ancient Red or Gold dragon seems way too much in my opinion.

Ancient Epic Dragons (effectively Dragon "Gods") should be adversaries for the Epic Tier.

Ancient Cosmic Dragons (Space Dragons) should be adversaries primarily for the Immortal Tier (31-40) but with Super-solo Stat-blocks we can knock a few Levels off that. So that they could still be foes for the end of the Epic Tier.

Ancient Escatolic Dragons (Doomsday Dragons) should be foes for the Sidereal Tier (41-50).

Ancient Muhlatimic Dragons (Polemic (?) Dragons) should be enemies for the Eternal Tier (51-60)

That means when your PCs are all time lords, Ancient Muhlatimic Dragons are the sort of enemies you should be facing.

Hope that helps.

So for Solos:
Immortals: 21-30
Sidereals: 31-40
Eternals: 41-50
Supernals: 51-60
That seems good, but aren't gods in 4e level 31-40 Solos?

Upper_Krust · Apr 17, 2013

Hey guys - just to let you know I go to Portugal tomorrow and won't be back until Monday. I'll respond to any replies or emails when I get back.

FieryDragonLord said:
So for Solos:
Immortals: 21-30
Sidereals: 31-40
Eternals: 41-50
Supernals: 51-60
That seems good, but aren't gods in 4e level 31-40 Solos?

Hero-deity: 21-23 Elite
Quasi-deity: 24-26 Elite
Demi-deity 27-30 Elite

Lesser Deity = 31-33 Elite
Intermediate Deity = 34-36 Elite
Greater Deity = 37-40 Elite

Elder One = 41-43 Solo
Old One = 44-46 Solo
First One = 47-50 Solo

Demiurge = 51-53 Solo
Time Lord = 54-56 Solo
High lord = 57-60 Solo

1. Elite Gods are treated as Solo monsters on their home plane.

2. Technically solo monsters could be Super-solos at -5 levels.

Omeganian · Apr 19, 2013

Upper_Krust said:
Ancient Muhlatimic Dragons (Polemic (?) Dragons) should be enemies for the Eternal Tier (51-60)

That means when your PCs are all time lords, Ancient Muhlatimic Dragons are the sort of enemies you should be facing.

Hope that helps.

My thought was to have them as above regular Eternals as a dragon is to regular human, and perhaps with a few more age categories than regulars (maybe each dragon class gets an additional category - Wyrm for Epics, then Great Wyrm for Cosmic, then an Archon Drake for Eschatolic, then a Tanin for Mukhlatimic). The scenario I put in the background is basically a guy beating street bullies with a wand powered by a dragon's scale.

FieryDragonLord · Apr 20, 2013

Omeganian said:
My thought was to have them as above regular Eternals as a dragon is to regular human, and perhaps with a few more age categories than regulars (maybe each dragon class gets an additional category - Wyrm for Epics, then Great Wyrm for Cosmic, then an Archon Drake for Eschatolic, then a Tanin for Mukhlatimic). The scenario I put in the background is basically a guy beating street bullies with a wand powered by a dragon's scale.

I like this idea very much. Particularly the name "Archon Drake".

If Muhlatimics are Supernals, then they are as threatening to Eternals as normal dragons are to humans.

It seems like the dragons should be at least 5 levels higher to be the appropriate divine rank, if the strongest dragons are ancients.If ancient Epics are level 21-30, then they are at most Demi-Gods. If ancient Cosmics are level 31-40, then they are at most Greater Gods, and so on for the other types. So the dragons are one rank below their divine tier.

Upper_Krust · Apr 23, 2013

Howdy Omeganian mate!

Omeganian said:
My thought was to have them as above regular Eternals as a dragon is to regular human, and perhaps with a few more age categories than regulars (maybe each dragon class gets an additional category - Wyrm for Epics, then Great Wyrm for Cosmic, then an Archon Drake for Eschatolic, then a Tanin for Mukhlatimic). The scenario I put in the background is basically a guy beating street bullies with a wand powered by a dragon's scale.

I don't particularly think the additional age category thing is a good idea.

1. If you can't get the ideas across within five stat-blocks then your design is lacking.
2. Some of these really need to be ridiculous Super-solo stat-blocks taking up a large amount of space.
3. Dragons tend to be fairly similar, so I think its self defeating making simply more stat-blocks.
4. Giving dragons a greater 'spread' of levels also makes them less unique to certain tiers.
5. It doesn't make sense for them to be more powerful than they already are.
6. Time (and thus age categories) cease to be a factor when we get to Eschatolic - in fact, the more powerful the dragon tier the LESS ages it should have in my opinion, because time ceases to be important.

What I will probably do is add a new size category to each:

True Dragon = Gargantuan size Ancients, 5 ages
Epic = Mega-size Ancients, 4 ages
Cosmic = Giga-size Ancients, 3 ages
Eschatolic = Tera-size Ancients, 2 ages
Muhlatimic = Peta-size Ancients, 1 age

Of course the question then is what size to make all the preceeding ages...?

Muhlatimic Dragons

Upper_Krust

Hero

Betrayor

First Post

Khisanth the Ancient

Explorer

Upper_Krust

Hero

Betrayor

First Post

FieryDragonLord

Villager

Upper_Krust

Hero

Omeganian

Explorer

FieryDragonLord

Villager

Upper_Krust

Hero

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