8 minutes/turn - is that very slow? slow? average?

Quickleaf · Apr 14, 2013

Hey, sorry to bring up the "slow combats in 4e" topic again, but it has resurfaced in my current game, and myself (DM) and the other players are trying to do a bit of trouble-shooting.

Here's what a player observed in a complex boss fight from last night: Our group's average turn length was approaching 8 minutes. The chief cause of this seems to be players taking a long time deciding what to do. And then other players lose interest or get distracted.

So I have two questions:

1) Are there any excellent solutions to this problem that folks have found? Besides switching game systems

2) How long, on average, are your player's turns in combat? Is 8 minutes very slow, slow, or average?

Thanks in advance

the Jester · Apr 14, 2013

If you're interested, this old thread involved a lot of tracking of these kinds of numbers by several groups.

I used to have a link to a spreadsheet containing said data, but- aha! Here it is! Based on this, I'd say that about 2 to 3 minutes is a rough average of turn length.

As far as solutions- making everyone aware of the issue, trying to keep focused on the game and simply not allowing pcs too much decision time are three options.

One problem with not letting the pcs take their time is the likelihood that at least one of the pcs in the party has an intelligence or wisdom in the superhuman range. One of my old players made the point that he (the player) was a lot less intelligent than his superintelligent wizard character, and that intelligence ought to be worth something... like plenty of time to look over his options.

Manbearcat · Apr 14, 2013

2 first: I don't know for other folks but my players are approximately 45 seconds on trivial (level + 2 fights) and 1.5 minutes (2 at most) on bosses (level + 5 fights). They are ready to go with their their suite of actions, they deploy, mechanically resolve and narrate conclusion within that time period. The vast majority of time in our combats is actually setting them up on the board! That is the primary reason why I constructed my alternative, narrative, dice pool approach for simple combats so we don't even have to bother with the board and can just use TotM and still get some fun, tactical, narrative-centric combat in play.

On 1. I believe that you have 7-8 players? Here is the thing. Given 4e's mechanical engine, the multiple vectors of a complex fight and the inherent synergy/teamwork that you're expected to leverage for force-multiplication, players will potentially get overburdened with trying to squeak out every single last bit of action economy optimization. Players HAVE to be decisive. They need to be focusing on how they are going to spend their action economy on the few turns before they go. They should maybe have 2 approaches in that period and have it narrowed down to 1 when it is their turn. Balance is not so outrageously tight that if they don't squeak out perfectly optimal usage of their actions (90 % vs 100 %) then they are doomed to fail.

There are three things that might help you guys along:

- Play speed chess together! Nothing gets people in the mode to consider multiple vectors, deploy and resolve quickly like speed chess!

- Have the people who take longer play MBA-based Essentials strikers, Twin Strike optimized Rangers, or Companion characters from DMG2.

- Set up an egg timer for 2 minutes for every single turn. Have a default At-Will approach (like in the D&D boardgames) that the character will use if that egg timer dings.

Quickleaf · Apr 14, 2013

Yeah I don't want to go the egg timer route because that ruins the "casual game" vibe and creates its own problems without solving anything at its source.

I tried recommending Essentials classes but none of the slower folks took me up on it. And I'm not convinced anything short of a Slayer is that much less complex in Essentials either; for example the Barbarian is pretty straight-forward whereas the essentials Berserker adds a defender-to-striker switch mechanic just as complicated as any rage daily power.

In general I think the layout of 4e character sheets sucks and should be more like a monster writeup to facilitate faster player turns.

And then there's the logistics tweaks I can make as DM, but the real time savings need to come from the players' side.

pemerton · Apr 14, 2013

My group plays a lot slower than Manbearcat's, though I think not as slow as 8 minutes per turn. The two players who play fastest in my group are the two playing ranged strikers (sorcerer, ranger/cleric) - they point and shoot, and have good At-Wills to default to (a highly feat-enhanced Blazing Starfall, and Twin Strike, respectively).

The two players who play slowest are the two playing controllers - a polearm fighter who has the option of switching to his mordenkrad (so two suites of complex options), and the invoker-wizard. The slowness here is a mixture of player style and the objective complexity of the builds.

We also have other external factors causing slowness in our group, most noticeably the presence of young children in the immediate environs (our sessions double as "D&D creche").

Slowness is bad, obviously, when it is just one player umming and ahing while the rest wander off to find more amusing things to occupy their minds. But if one of the controllers has to make a decision that could impact on the whole situation - eg where to position a key creature, or who to lock down - then the whole table will often join in. Of course, this can contribute to more slowness as the price of more engagement!

I also tend to build encounters with large numbers of monsters/NPCs, which themselves take up time to adjudicate - but I try to play these creatures in a way that responds to/engages with what the players are having their PCs do, which can help with engagement - not to mention other metagame things like declaring the number on the d20 needed to hit and then rolling the die out in the open so the targeted player can watch - generally this helps maintain emotional connection between the player and the ingame events.

I don't have a lot of suggestion for actually speeding thing up. Good character sheets are one pretty important tool, I think (and this is where controllers make it harder, because their often fiddly details are harder to reduce to a single sheet). Deeming a PC to have delayed if his/her player is absent from the table is another thing I do from time to time. And once a player has moved his/her PC and taken a standard action, if s/he is still wondering about whether or not to take a minor action and if so which one I will generally move on, and let the buffing/healing be resolved by that player with the other affected players.

Tequila Sunrise · Apr 14, 2013

the Jester said:
One problem with not letting the pcs take their time is the likelihood that at least one of the pcs in the party has an intelligence or wisdom in the superhuman range. One of my old players made the point that he (the player) was a lot less intelligent than his superintelligent wizard character, and that intelligence ought to be worth something... like plenty of time to look over his options.

Eh, I think the Sherlock Effect is one Hollywoodism that doesn't need to exist in gaming. Smarts doesn't help a body react any smarter in tense situations where adrenaline is screaming FIGHT OR FLIGHT! Only experience helps a body react strategically under pressure, which is conveniently enough reflected by a player's experience using his PC's powers.

On the main topic, I strangely enough just started a campaign with mostly new players. Most of them had 6th level pregens, and I didn't time their turns, but I don't think anyone took anywhere near 8 minutes. Even so, they felt that turns were taking too long so one of the new guys actually came up with the egg timer idea mid-combat. Personally, I think it helps -- it certainly did during that session.

Other time saving tricks I've used: Have PC defenses listed on a page behind my DM screen, so I don't have to continually ask "Your AC is...23, yeah?" Write out monster defenses on index cards and have players pass them around as they take their turns, so they don't have to continually ask whether they've hit. Have everyone roll attacks and damage at the same time. (I actually need to remind myself of these for the next session!)

keterys · Apr 14, 2013

8 minute turns is really long. That means a 6-PC group is taking 2.5 hours to do a 3 round fight.

Without factoring in the monsters

There's plenty of ways to make people play faster, but the important way to do it is to make them actually want to do so. Whether that's via carrot, stick, shame, whatever you got. And, yes, that means some people aren't allowed to play certain types of PCs. Or do crossword puzzles off-turn. Or on turn. Whatever is somehow making that happen.

D'karr · Apr 14, 2013

My first question on this would be, "was everyone still enjoying themselves even with the long turns?" If the answer is some were looking for something else to do, then you have an issue that should be addressed. If not then carry on, and keep enjoying the game at whatever pace it's progressing.

I have a large group (7-9 players). The only times we have very long combat rounds is when a lot of side conversations are going on, or when "helpful" advice is causing analysis paralysis. If side conversations are affecting the pacing I talk to my players about it. "Helpful" advice is the worst offender when it comes to pacing.

If someone can't make a decision of what their character is doing I put them on delay. I always tell my players who is "on deck" so they're prepared, and initiative is out in the open. I don't over analyze monster tactics. I provoke attacks of opportunity, and trigger combat challenge with impunity. I roll attack and damage at the same time, out of habit, and constantly remind my players to do the same. And I never have monsters fight to the death, except on very rare thematically appropriate occasions.

My most important "job" as DM is pacing. As a DM I "MUST, MUST, MUST" regulate pacing. If the game is bogging down it is my "job" to correct the issues causing it. Sometimes the side conversations are because everyone is having a good time. The game is a social experience after all. So you have to be cognizant about that. We have about a 30-45 minute decompress time before starting to play to let everyone socialize. After that we're usually in the mood to play. BTW, there have been a handful of occasions where we simply decided to do something else because we were just "not in the mood" to game that day. It's good to play with friends because we enjoy each others company even when we're not playing the game.

Ferghis · Apr 14, 2013

Quickleaf said:
1) Are there any excellent solutions to this problem that folks have found?

Excellent, I don't know of. One solution to distracted players that I would like to see experimented with is replacing monster attacks with "defensive" rolls. Subtract 10 (or 9? whatever gets the same exact odds) from each defense, and use that as a bonus to a d20 roll, the target number of which is the monster's attack roll+10. DM still rolls damage. This might keep players involved in their characters out of their turn, at least if they're being attacked.

Quickleaf said:
2) How long, on average, are your player's turns in combat? Is 8 minutes very slow, slow, or average?

My experience with a variety of groups is similar to yours, [MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION]. My online groups tend to be a bit better. There, we have a clear initiative mechanic, and maptools notifies when a player's turn ends and another's begins, shifting responsibility appropriately and visibly.

Quickleaf said:
I tried recommending Essentials classes but none of the slower folks took me up on it. And I'm not convinced anything short of a Slayer is that much less complex in Essentials either; for example the Barbarian is pretty straight-forward whereas the essentials Berserker adds a defender-to-striker switch mechanic just as complicated as any rage daily power.

I agree somewhat. I think that essentials thieves have a slightly easier time choosing what to do, since they basically just use the at-will that gives them combat advantage, and then pile on as many uses of their extra-damage encounter power as they can, unless their target is clearly KO without it.

Quickleaf said:
In general I think the layout of 4e character sheets sucks and should be more like a monster writeup to facilitate faster player turns.

This is an excellent notion. My excel character sheets powers are laid out by action type (which approximates your suggestion), but I wish I would highlight the triggers more clearly.

D'karr said:
My first question on this would be, "was everyone still enjoying themselves even with the long turns?" If the answer is some were looking for something else to do, then you have an issue that should be addressed. If not then carry on, and keep enjoying the game at whatever pace it's progressing.

This is an excellent point. I agree with it completely.

D'karr said:
The only times we have very long combat rounds is when a lot of side conversations are going on, or when "helpful" advice is causing analysis paralysis. ... "Helpful" advice is the worst offender when it comes to pacing.

Another excellent point. As a player, I try to strike the balance between "helpful" and "analysis paralysis" by only stating my thoughts once. I often fail at striking this balance, and truth be told, it usually doesn't matter much.

On the other hand, these conversations are fun for me. Talking about something I enjoy, looking at things analytically, sharing thoughts (mine and theirs) with my friends, are all prime goals in my life. I'm not sure I'd enjoy the game as much without these bits.

D'karr said:
I provoke attacks of opportunity, and trigger combat challenge with impunity.

I think this is a very underrated tactic, although I imagine DMs on these boards know about them. Many DMs I know only rarely trigger trigger these attacks.