How did Trek Become Such a Phenomenon?

Janx · Jul 19, 2013

Umbran said:
Yes, that's the common story. The counter to it is that Paramount already had ideas for DS9 in motion at the time JMS came to them. It isn't like, "set a space show on a station" is an incredibly difficult idea to come up with. I don't think we are ever going to know the real truth of the matter, and I don't think the speculation is of any value to viewers.

True enough. Hollywoood seems to have a common pattern of 2 movies of the same general concept coming out at the same time.

This year has had 2 White House invasion films. The End and The World's End are both post apocalyptic films. The Illusionist and The Prestige were both films about magicians (coming out around the same time). Pretty much every year, 2 different studios are making variations of the same idea (Dredd and The Tower).

What proves DS9 wasn't a deliberate clone to me was that the fiest 3 seasons were episodic where B5 was always serial. Then DS9 switched to being serial (and the show got better by most people's opinion). That switch is when DS9 raised its head, looked at what B5 was doing, and copied it. Until that point, DS9 was being made in its own little idea bubble.

B5's serialness wasn't an original idea. JMS has said in interviews, that he wanted to emulate the serial story telling that BBC shows did (I don't recall him naming anything, merely that it was an inspiration that series have a story arc to tell and then end).

What B5's contribution to American television was that nearly every TV show is now serial. Events from a previous episode carry over to the next. There's no great reset to status quo ending of every episode that lets you watch them in random order like we had in the 80's.

Alzrius · Jul 19, 2013

Ahnehnois said:
A lot of the better episodes are really astonishing at predicting post-9/11 social issues, even though they were written in the 1990's.

I remember watching the pilot episode for the short-lived X-Files spin-off The Lone Gunmen in March of 2001, with the plot being that the U.S. government was trying to fly a plane into the World Trade Center in New York so that it could be blamed on some tin-pot dictator, and ramp up the military-industrial complex in the ensuing American "retaliation" for the attack.

Talk about astonishing.

Umbran · Jul 19, 2013

Janx said:
B5's serialness wasn't an original idea. JMS has said in interviews, that he wanted to emulate the serial story telling that BBC shows did (I don't recall him naming anything, merely that it was an inspiration that series have a story arc to tell and then end).

Serial stories have been around since the printing press was invented, so no, it wasn't a new idea. It was, however, pretty much unheard of in American sci-fi television of the time.

Ahnehnois · Jul 19, 2013

[MENTION=8461]Alzrius[/MENTION]
I watched that too and that one of the strangest but truest examples of TV precognition.

The DS9 episodes Homefront and Paradise Lost actually had an idea like that (government insider stages terrorist attack to induce Starfleet to give him wartime powers) but not nearly the literal similarity.

***

Regarding the B5/DS9 similarities, there probably was at least some stealing of ideas, but I doubt is was any more than that which is de rigeur throughout all creative fields. Shakespeare stole plot ideas too.

Bottom line is DS9 did it better. Better actors, better characters, better design, better effects, better music, and better TV overall.

NewJeffCT · Jul 19, 2013

I watched all of DS9 and B5 when they were aired back in the dark ages. I think I cared more for the main characters on DS9 more than I did on B5, but I think both were excellent shows at their peaks. I'd even say that at its best, DS9 was the best Trek show. However, I don't think DS9 had the overall consistency of TNG over its run on the air, which really took off after a mediocre season 1. Both B5 and DS9 had longer lasting mediocre starts than TNG and weren't as consistent, IMHO.

In terms of movies, I still like Wrath of Khan best, but I also think First Contact was excellent. I also liked The Voyage Home/Star Trek saves the whales because of some of the humor ("A double dumb ass on you" or Chekhov and his "nuclear wessels"). The other Trek movies, I think, were "meh" overall. The reboot had made them more into action movies, so I'm not sure how I like them overall until we get the third part to the trilogy.

sabrinathecat · Jul 19, 2013

Actually, that reminds me of something else: someone was wanting a scifi show more likely to happen in the next 30 years. There was a British show--I think it was something like "Space Island One"--that might come close. Granted, it was made about 15 years ago, so a little dated, but still good.

NewJeffCT · Jul 19, 2013

Tequila Sunrise said:
Kirk: Khan, the genetically engineering sociopath, attempts and nearly succeeds at taking the Enterprise by force. Kirk's reaction? "Instead of, I dunno...imprisoning or executing your dangerous and unrepentant ass, I'm going to drop you and your traitor girlfriend on the nearest habitable planet. Good luck!" Really Kirk? I know you're a space cowboy, but that's just moronic. I hope Khan comes back and kills your best friend.

In regards to Khan being exiled, due to Furman v Georgia, the United States temporarily did not have an execution from 1967 through 1976, and most western nations still do not. At the time, I'm sure the writers figured that the death penalty would not be around as a punishment in the future. So, Kirk having Khan hung, phasered, gassed, lethally injected, electrocuted, etc would not have been in character at the time for either Kirk or the Federation.

As stated by many before me, I think the popularity of Star Trek was mostly due to timing. It was a good show and the cast had a good chemistry together, and there was not a lot of far future science fiction on TV or the movies until Star Wars came long in 1977. I remember the $6 million man, bionic woman, Space 1999, Wonder Woman and maybe one or two others, but none were set hundreds of years in the future like Star Trek until Star Wars (which was a "long time ago" of course) but is still technologically far beyond Space 1999 or the $6 Million Man... so, young boys like me that were born in 1966 only really had Star Trek reruns and the Star Trek cartoon until Star Wars came out for that giant space battle scenario that so many little boys love.

Janx · Jul 19, 2013

I think there's a simpler reason.

ST appealed to a broad number of people and that is why it is one of the most popular shows ever.

And most people do not hyper-scrutinize a TV show for errors, let alone a show they like.

It is a fruitless task to pick Star Trek apart for all its errors, inconsistencies, etc. that's like pointing out the mole on the Prom queen after all the votes have been counted and re-counted.

Of course it has flaws. Nothing in this world is flawless. Once something has been found to appeal to a lot of people, any naysayers just sound like hypocritical whiners when we find out their preferred candidate also has a mole in the shape of Russia on her arse.

sabrinathecat · Jul 20, 2013

Some copying of ideas? More than just a bit. Both have a warrior from an alien culture join the cast (Marcus Cole/Warf). Both have a lesbian scene the same week! (only difference was Ivonova/Talia was subtle, and JMS had had men holding hands with men and women holding hands with women in the background the whole time, on the theory that by 2258, the human race would have grown up a bit). Both had a unique ship with special advantages join the show in season 3 (first of the White Star fleet/Defiant). Both had a major female character recast/replaced (Ivanova for Lockley/the trill woman for another host). And that's off the top of my head.
And I disagree totally with the notion that DS9 did a better job. But there I think we are back to opinions, which are seldom logical, and highly subjective.

Yeah, timing. Some of us also had StarBlazers/Space Battleship Yamato dub.

ggroy · Jul 20, 2013

sabrinathecat said:
Actually, that reminds me of something else: someone was wanting a scifi show more likely to happen in the next 30 years.

Another near-future show that comes to mind is Total Recall 2070. (The show resembles more Blade Runner, than Total Recall). It's like a police show with Blade Runner style androids, Total Recall style memory modifications, evil corporations resembling Tyrell or Rekall, etc ...