How Important is the D&D Brand?

Is the brand identity of Dungeons and Dragons something other games should be targeting?

Is the brand identity of Dungeons and Dragons something other games should be targeting?


View attachment 58175

So You're Going To Sneeze.

Do you reach for a kleenex? A Tissue? A Puffs?

I'm betting that you do so in roughly that order. Most people will say kleenex (leading brand name), others will use tissue (generic term). And a few stubborn, difficult folks will say "puffs", mostly expecting to be misunderstood so they can vent a little spleen.

What The Hell Are You Talking About Kleenex For?

We are in the middle of a really interesting period for our hobby -- probably more interesting in the long run than the original boom in 3rd party publication that followed the d20 Open License release.

The dominant brand -- Dungeons and Dragons -- has been essentially on a re-design hiatus for over a year and a half. They're still out there, developing products that use the IP like board games and computer games. They're working hard to be open and stay engaged with their existing fans through the monumental open playtest program. But for quite some time now they haven't really been pushing their core product.

This has created a window for other products. Some were already well established -- Pathfinder, which was born in the sturm und drang over the 4th edition release, is probably the most significant. Paizo's product quality has been the standard by which all others are measured for a long time, and their evolution of the d20 ruleset is no exception.

But this past year or so has given rise to many other games that I think could have been easily ignorable in other circumstances. Clearly, the rise of the Kickstarter RPG engine has roared into the D&D vacuum, and systems that might have been minor boutique products like FATE have exploded onto the scene and have developed audiences they might not have dreamed of just three years ago. Other games that have been around for a while are also getting a bump in the D&D break -- Savage Worlds, for one, seems to be coming on strong on many fronts.

The interesting question, though, is how much does that all matter to D&D? With the D&D Next fallow period coming (eventually) to an end, will D&D come back from it's walkabout and return to it's top dog position? Or are the other games, other publishers, becoming viable contenders for the top spot?

Another Brand Example

Think about this: In conversations with people who are not gamers, which gets the point across more quickly -- "Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game" or "World of Warcraft"?

It's World of Warcraft, hands down. And even today, when the market dominance that WOW had years ago has eroded substantially, it's still the descriptor that has the cultural capital to mean MMORPG better than the actual term does (at least to outsiders).


Beating the Brand

Imagine someone who has never played RPGs before. She likes Star Wars, thinks Avengers was awesome, likes board games like Risk and Settlers of Catan, but that's as far as she's gone.

So, you tell her "Vin Diesel, Wil Wheaton, and Dan Harmon play Pathfinder." Does that mean anything to her? How about "Vin Diesel, Wil Wheaton, and Dan Harmon play Dungeons and Dragons"?

The difference is the power of the D&D brand. The vast audience of non-geeks out there has heard of Dungeons and Dragons. Their perceptions D&D are probably silly and wrong to our ears, but at least they know what it is; there's cultural capital there that these other games simply don't have.

When you come right down to it, when it becomes time to explain a non-D&D game to an outsider, we probably need to mention D&D as starting point.

Now, I'm not a member of the staff of any of those other games….but I imagine that must get pretty galling after a while. Anyone else trying to take over the mindshare that D&D has is facing 35+ years of brand recognition, recognition reinforced by TV shows, movies, books cartoons, board games, comic books, and probably a breakfast cereal.

But Does It Matter?

The brand dominance of D&D isn't a bad thing -- even if your first choice RPG isn't Dungeons and Dragons. It's a reality that puts D&D in a position the other companies don't need to be in, however. For a long time now they have been the primary recruiters for the hobby.

Their sheer size, and their need for a large audience, has meant that they have need a flow of new players and new customers that they can't get by stealing them away from other games. (DDN seemed, at first, to be a bid to try to change this reality and try to win players back; I'm not so sure of that anymore).

But for a long time, I have felt like that's okay, because the other brands have been able to create their own audience by grabbing D&D players away from D&D. Someone who wants more story flexibility from D&D might discover FATE. Someone who wants faster action or wider variety of settings might discover Savage Worlds or GURPS. Someone who loves micromanaging might discover Rolemaster. Once you've been brought into the community there are games for every taste.

The question the #2, #3, or ambitious #10 games out there need to answer is Can We Compete For D&D's Position as the Gateway Game? And Do We Want To?

And if we want to, HOW?

Sidebar: Is there a Risk for WOTC?

When a brand becomes the generic term for the product, there are grave risks for the company with that brand. It's vitally important to defend the brand name, because once the brand becomes that generic descriptor (aka a Generic Trademark) the company may lost the ability to trademark their brand name.

So, It's actually important for the WOTC brand managers -- while keeping the Dungeons and Dragons brand on top of the heap -- from becoming the generic name for the heap of RPGs. They should cringe at the idea that their brand name is used when we talk about our hobby -- despite the fact that it remains the most clear way of communicating what we do to people who aren't part of the community.

They've got nearly 40 years of brand identity behind them, but if they aren't careful, they might lost the ability to control it. And that's why you'll never see a WOTC staffer use the term "Dungeons and Dragons" as a collective term, the way I'm arguing the general public might.

Back To Beating Them

For more than a year Pathfinder has been outselling D&D. That's not much of a surprise to anyone -- D&D's primary delivery method had become online via subscription, and they haven't been selling much except reprints of old editions for a while now.

When D&D comes back, they're going to roar back into the stores and it's going to be interesting to see if Pathfinder can remain on top. It's also going to be interesting to see if Wizards continues the subscription model for the game. I'd bet they do, but anything's possible. Maybe they'll just run the whole thing through Facebook. Everybody loves Facebook.

Any game property that really wants to try to compete for that brand recognition -- especially in the awareness of people who are outside the hobby -- needs to be creating that awareness through non-rpg IP.

Take a look, for example, at the way Defiance is both an MMO and a TV Show. The MMO is getting far more attention that it may deserve because people are also interested in the TV show. Can you imagine a similar tie-in show on SyFy for Pathfinder? A live-action show called "Pathfinder Society" about an adventuring company? Heck, I'd watch that, even if the effects and writing were Sharknado-level bad.

What do you think? Should companies like Paizo try to compete for that brand identity space in the general public?
 

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Argyle King

Legend
Perhaps its the definition of "informed", but there is a significant amount of brand loyalty with gamers. There are a large number of threads on other game's boards (well, I can attest to Savage Worlds anyway) asking about how to get their group to even consider something other than D&D or Pathfinder. And until D&D "broke" for me at the end of the 3.x beginning of the 4e era, I was one of those people that had little use for other "brands" of games (except 3rd party support for 3.x).

Branding is always important, but the brand has to be supported with quality stuff. During most of the 3e era I would buy stuff sight unseen because the quality was constantly good (it of course dipped in the end to a degree). Anything in the 4e era is viewed with suspect, and not because I am 4-hater. I kinda liked the system, but the layout of the material is rarely evocative and the adventures were below even traditional D&D fair. Dark Sun in particular pissed me off (over 40% was just character crunch - I wanted a setting, not a rewrite of the system). I have started/seen threads here on ENWorld asking for the best adventures from 4e or stuff to get even if you are not a 4e lover and they come up very sparse on recommendations.

Now D&D is just a confused brand that I generally avoid as it tries to rediscover itself. That is bad because I am unlikely to even purchase the core 5e books whenever they actually make them. Their track record on modules has become very poor (I would gladly pick up good adventures as they are easy to covert to Savage Worlds, my goto system). I suspect they will not do any new game worlds, just refreshing FR yet again (one thing that kept me in 3e longer was the release of Eberron). In short, D&D used to be a brand I would pick up with just a glance at the topic. Now D&D means "tread carefully" until such time it proves itself of value again.

That "buy sight unseen brand loyalty" is now with a couple of Savage Worlds related companies. Pinnacle (Savage Worlds rules and settings like Deadlands, 50 Fathoms, Solomon Kane, and others), Triple Ace Games (Hellfrost, Hellfrost Land of Fire, Necropolis, Pulp, and others), and Reality Blurs (Realms of Cthulu, Iron Dynasty) are automatics with some others in the running. Now I also realize that because I am off the D&D/Pathfinder (the game system) road that I might never get back on. That may be more of a target market drift - my family situation is such that buying tons of crunch books is not the best use of my gaming dollar and Savage Worlds is targeted for people just like me. But the damaged D&D brand is what started it - my family is what is finishing it :)


I think your experience mirrors a lot of mine -with the exception that I started playing and buying GURPS material. It boggles my mind when I think about how much money I spent on D&D during 3rd; many times, I bought things while scarcely knowing what the products were. My loyalty to the D&D brand was such that I didn't question the decision to buy things very often. I bought the 4th Edition core books without even questioning what their quality might be because I still felt that brand loyalty. Now days? Things are a lot different, and I am suspicious of WoTC products.

To be fair, I cannot blame this on 4th Edition. I've spent a lot of time thinking about my experience with rpgs due to threads like this one, and I've come to realize that maybe I just didn't know any better during 3rd Edition. At the time, I had little or no experience with other systems other than a brief run with Rifts. There were things which bothered me about 3rd, but I overlooked them because I was -at the time- unaware how different other options could be. I was aware other games existed, but I figured that D&D being the industry leader must mean it had better quality. "How much different can rolling dice with a different game be," I would often think. So, while I knew there were other games, I didn't really think about them. With the birth of 4th Edition, I learned that mechanics could actually matter a lot; I learned that I had likes and dislikes. Eventually, I became frustrated with 4th* and D&D, and I decided to try something different. This lead me to standing in the local game store and trying to decide on either Champions or GURPS; I ended up buying GURPS. I had no idea there could be such a world of different in both the style of a rpg and the way I felt treated as a customer. (Note: In my opinion, SJ Games has excellent customer service.)

*I now can enjoy 4th, and I do believe it's a good game in spite of some of the issues I have with it. However, at the time, I was extremely negative toward both the product and WoTC as a company. Part of that was because I was trying to still play and run the game the same way I was running D&D previously. I didn't understand -at that time- that the game was different. That negativity boiled over after having some severe smudging problems with my DMG.

As for what I call things...

Honestly, I call a tissue a tissue. While I'm aware some people do use brand names as generic terms, I haven't done so in the case of tissues. I do have plenty of friends from the South who do use "Coke" to refer to pretty much any kind of soda. Years ago, I would have used "D&D" was a generic term for a roleplaying game, but it's been quite a while since I have, and I don't believe I personally know anyone who uses "D&D" as a generic term. I do occasionally call Pathfinder "D&D," but that's more due to Pathfinder being a clone of 3rd Edition and having had conversations in which I was trying to explain to someone what Pathfinder was. I would never refer to either GURPS or Dragon Age (both games that I currently play) as D&D.

I do feel that brand name can matter a lot, and likewise feel the D&D brand name has a lot of strength. However, I also feel it's important to note that brand name (usually) requires the product to live up to a certain standard. Flubs do happen, and an easy example is XBox. I'm sure the XBox One will still be an awesome machine, and I'm sure it will still sell like crazy, but a lot of poor PR, bad marketing, and a somewhat lacking presentation at E3 lead a lot of people to purchase a Playstation 4.
 
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billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Branding can be a tricky thing and means different things at different levels. To the outsider in markets like the US, D&D is probably about all they know about RPGs but it has been widely heard of. If anyone gets a hankering to try an RPG or get one for their kids, they're probably going to look for D&D. That's pretty huge because it makes D&D still the most attractive entrance to the RPG world.

On the other hand, to insiders, D&D usually means some specific things - or it does to certain groups of its fans. This is where 4e got into trouble with a segment of the D&D fan community - by applying that brand to a game that was substantially different from the other games that bore the same branding. You might argue that the D&D brand was perhaps too specific in the minds of the critics for WotC's intentions. Yet even among insiders, D&D's brand often retains a generic character akin to the outsider's view. There have been plenty of people on these boards posting that D&D is pretty much just getting together with friends to play fantasy RPGs that might not even be D&D, or even playing RPGs that aren't fantasy-based.

Ultimately, brand can be both powerful and weak and it's not always easy to forecast how things will turn out whenever the brand owner tries to exercise it.
 

Dire Bare

Legend
Ah, but you see, there's one major difference.

With Kleenex/tissues, there are no "outsiders". Everyone needs to blow their nose on occasion.

With D&D/RPGs, only outsiders use the term D&D to mean RPGs in general (and, honestly, the ones that do that don't actually know what it is, beyond a thing nerds do, and maybe dice and elves are involved). But, those outsiders have zero market power - they aren't customers!

Given that, even today, I'm pretty sure the driver of the D&D market is an apprentice system, where someone who knows the game brings you into the game, I don't see as how having the D&D brand be the common terms is really an issue.

I've been playing RPGs since late elementary school, which was unfortunately over 25 years ago . . . and I've always referred to my hobby as "D&D", even when I was playing other RPGs. And I am not alone. People on ENWorld and other RPG boards tend to be the "elite" RPGers, so to speak, and tend to forget they don't even remotely represent the hobby as a whole.

Both "insiders" and "outsiders" use "D&D" as a generic term. My suspicion, based on my own anecdotal experience, is that the majority of insiders do this. Most folks who play RPGs continue to play either D&D or Pathfinder, and Pathfinder IS D&D to them (even if published by another company with a different name).

I do think that we are enjoying a period with a good healthy mix of different games in different genres and with different rule sets, and some of us have moved "beyond" D&D to enjoy the many good games published by other companies . . . . .

But I'm convinced that the majority of us dabble at best in non-D&D games, and that most of us think of our hobby as a whole as "D&D", even when playing Shadowrun or Star Wars or what-have-you.

But, it's not like I've done any market research or anything! :)
 

Jhaelen

First Post
*shrug* I think outside of the US the brand isn't worth much. Here in Germany D&D is just one among many RPGs. Drizz't novels are probably one of the first things that come to anyone's mind. Pathfinder easily took over the few resident D&D players since it is available in German (while D&D isn't).

The groundbreaking RPG here in Germany has been 'Das Schwarze Auge', and it was often the only RPG people know. I'm not particularly up-to-date, though. It's quite possible that other RPGs are more en-vogue now, e.g. Warhammer (40k or otherwise) or Shadowrun or even a 'new' rpg that I don't really know anything about (is there a Yugi-Oh rpg?).
 

Alphastream

Adventurer
There is no question that Paizo wants its brand to be recognized. Right now, it isn't. While they have done a great job of drawing fans to Gen Con, they haven't been a dominant brand... even there. And if we go to cons like PAX, they barely have a presence there (they are the size of any indie/small/med RPG). They don't own a big culturally recognizable brand (yet?). The MMO is certainly an attempt to establish that, but also points to the industry's issues - this is a very revenue-poor (and profit-poor) industry. Brand matters, as does diversification into other more lucrative markets.

While Wizards/D&D have been quiet in terms of for-sale RPG-product recently, they have shown just how well-handled and important their brand can be. We need only compare the buzz around Pathfinder's MMO to the actually really very well received already out D&D-branded MMO, Neverwinter. Neverwinter shows the payoff, already, of all that effort to standardize D&D Next monster art/information. It showcases how the Forgotten Realms can create a really deep experience in a branded product. (We can all gripe about whatever MMO gameplay we like or don't like, but Neverwinter is an insanely good reproduction of the Neverwinter 4E RPG book and prior FR material. The lore, the NPCs, the factions, the geography... beautifully captured). That's the power of brand. We can also see how, despite some really bad D&D movies, there has recently been interest by two studios to produce D&D movies (and to sue each other about them). And, the recent ComicCon buzz with LEGO-like D&D toys. (Perhaps paving the way to more kid toys, a return of the cartoon...?)

For the RPG industry, a healthy D&D has always been unanimously said to be critical. When D&D does badly, so they say, the rest of the industry also fares poorly. That's probably true even today. We can marvel at Kickstarters that raise $400k, but that really isn't big compared to what D&D has sold historically. That's why we don't see D&D using Kickstarter - it commands a far bigger presence and sells at far higher volumes. That's also why the retail store remains vital. What Kickstarter does is increase the ability of individuals to find and support what they like. Gamers naturally will play a variety of games, and now they can fund the ones they like at the level they want (including some truly obscenely high-priced support levels). That's healthy for everyone. In the end, the vast majority of the people supporting to Kickstarters will come back to D&D. Ask most people playing FATE, 13th Age, Numenera, etc. what game they have played the most and think of most fondly... the answer probably is and will be D&D.
 

Maul

Explorer
I think D&D has waited too long to release D&D next.

They have lost way too much of the market to just barge back into the hobby gaming market and just assume their place as if nothing ever happened.

When they do release their D&D Next brand, they'll have to compete with the company for which all games are compared to in Paizo and their Pathfinder brand.

I do have to say, I miss the old Forgotten Realms world. It had a variety of personalities that filled a great world. But then, what I like to call, "THE GREAT RIFT" happened, referring of course to the 4th edition division of players where a line was drawn in the sand and players chose sides, it was suddenly 200 years in the future and all my endearing characters were gone. But thats the past and this is now.

Pathfinder is supported right now and D&D has been demoted to board games and releasing books from previous editions.

I might check out D&D next if a friend buys the books but I personally will not purchase them.
 

Stormonu

Legend
I think Paizo is doing a wonderful job keeping D&D on its toes, but it's not in any danger of overtaking the D&D brand. I really think that prior to 5E, there was a lot of arrogance at WotC that they could do no wrong; anything they did would be unquestionable gold. However, I think the OSR and Paizo combined helped to shatter that image and made WotC blink - and realize that a lot of fans that had been holding it up were now engaged in a fist fight with each other.

I see the D&D/Pathfinder/OSR relation a lot like other businesses - the dynamic between McDonald's/Burger King/Wendy's, Microsoft/Apple/Linux, Coke/Pepsi/Kool-Aid and others. The secondaries in the market won't take over unless the behemoth of the group takes a willful header - and the secondary's successes spur the primary onward to re-evaluate their practices and improve them - absorb them where they can.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Coke/Pepsi

Minor quibble- Coke has about 42% of the global cola market to Pepsi's 31%, but while each is diversified into thousands of beverage brands worldwide, Pepsi is also in some food markets as well, topping Coke's $36B with their own $53B...

Essentially, they're very evenly matched.
 



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