How Important is the D&D Brand?

Is the brand identity of Dungeons and Dragons something other games should be targeting?

Is the brand identity of Dungeons and Dragons something other games should be targeting?


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So You're Going To Sneeze.

Do you reach for a kleenex? A Tissue? A Puffs?

I'm betting that you do so in roughly that order. Most people will say kleenex (leading brand name), others will use tissue (generic term). And a few stubborn, difficult folks will say "puffs", mostly expecting to be misunderstood so they can vent a little spleen.

What The Hell Are You Talking About Kleenex For?

We are in the middle of a really interesting period for our hobby -- probably more interesting in the long run than the original boom in 3rd party publication that followed the d20 Open License release.

The dominant brand -- Dungeons and Dragons -- has been essentially on a re-design hiatus for over a year and a half. They're still out there, developing products that use the IP like board games and computer games. They're working hard to be open and stay engaged with their existing fans through the monumental open playtest program. But for quite some time now they haven't really been pushing their core product.

This has created a window for other products. Some were already well established -- Pathfinder, which was born in the sturm und drang over the 4th edition release, is probably the most significant. Paizo's product quality has been the standard by which all others are measured for a long time, and their evolution of the d20 ruleset is no exception.

But this past year or so has given rise to many other games that I think could have been easily ignorable in other circumstances. Clearly, the rise of the Kickstarter RPG engine has roared into the D&D vacuum, and systems that might have been minor boutique products like FATE have exploded onto the scene and have developed audiences they might not have dreamed of just three years ago. Other games that have been around for a while are also getting a bump in the D&D break -- Savage Worlds, for one, seems to be coming on strong on many fronts.

The interesting question, though, is how much does that all matter to D&D? With the D&D Next fallow period coming (eventually) to an end, will D&D come back from it's walkabout and return to it's top dog position? Or are the other games, other publishers, becoming viable contenders for the top spot?

Another Brand Example

Think about this: In conversations with people who are not gamers, which gets the point across more quickly -- "Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game" or "World of Warcraft"?

It's World of Warcraft, hands down. And even today, when the market dominance that WOW had years ago has eroded substantially, it's still the descriptor that has the cultural capital to mean MMORPG better than the actual term does (at least to outsiders).


Beating the Brand

Imagine someone who has never played RPGs before. She likes Star Wars, thinks Avengers was awesome, likes board games like Risk and Settlers of Catan, but that's as far as she's gone.

So, you tell her "Vin Diesel, Wil Wheaton, and Dan Harmon play Pathfinder." Does that mean anything to her? How about "Vin Diesel, Wil Wheaton, and Dan Harmon play Dungeons and Dragons"?

The difference is the power of the D&D brand. The vast audience of non-geeks out there has heard of Dungeons and Dragons. Their perceptions D&D are probably silly and wrong to our ears, but at least they know what it is; there's cultural capital there that these other games simply don't have.

When you come right down to it, when it becomes time to explain a non-D&D game to an outsider, we probably need to mention D&D as starting point.

Now, I'm not a member of the staff of any of those other games….but I imagine that must get pretty galling after a while. Anyone else trying to take over the mindshare that D&D has is facing 35+ years of brand recognition, recognition reinforced by TV shows, movies, books cartoons, board games, comic books, and probably a breakfast cereal.

But Does It Matter?

The brand dominance of D&D isn't a bad thing -- even if your first choice RPG isn't Dungeons and Dragons. It's a reality that puts D&D in a position the other companies don't need to be in, however. For a long time now they have been the primary recruiters for the hobby.

Their sheer size, and their need for a large audience, has meant that they have need a flow of new players and new customers that they can't get by stealing them away from other games. (DDN seemed, at first, to be a bid to try to change this reality and try to win players back; I'm not so sure of that anymore).

But for a long time, I have felt like that's okay, because the other brands have been able to create their own audience by grabbing D&D players away from D&D. Someone who wants more story flexibility from D&D might discover FATE. Someone who wants faster action or wider variety of settings might discover Savage Worlds or GURPS. Someone who loves micromanaging might discover Rolemaster. Once you've been brought into the community there are games for every taste.

The question the #2, #3, or ambitious #10 games out there need to answer is Can We Compete For D&D's Position as the Gateway Game? And Do We Want To?

And if we want to, HOW?

Sidebar: Is there a Risk for WOTC?

When a brand becomes the generic term for the product, there are grave risks for the company with that brand. It's vitally important to defend the brand name, because once the brand becomes that generic descriptor (aka a Generic Trademark) the company may lost the ability to trademark their brand name.

So, It's actually important for the WOTC brand managers -- while keeping the Dungeons and Dragons brand on top of the heap -- from becoming the generic name for the heap of RPGs. They should cringe at the idea that their brand name is used when we talk about our hobby -- despite the fact that it remains the most clear way of communicating what we do to people who aren't part of the community.

They've got nearly 40 years of brand identity behind them, but if they aren't careful, they might lost the ability to control it. And that's why you'll never see a WOTC staffer use the term "Dungeons and Dragons" as a collective term, the way I'm arguing the general public might.

Back To Beating Them

For more than a year Pathfinder has been outselling D&D. That's not much of a surprise to anyone -- D&D's primary delivery method had become online via subscription, and they haven't been selling much except reprints of old editions for a while now.

When D&D comes back, they're going to roar back into the stores and it's going to be interesting to see if Pathfinder can remain on top. It's also going to be interesting to see if Wizards continues the subscription model for the game. I'd bet they do, but anything's possible. Maybe they'll just run the whole thing through Facebook. Everybody loves Facebook.

Any game property that really wants to try to compete for that brand recognition -- especially in the awareness of people who are outside the hobby -- needs to be creating that awareness through non-rpg IP.

Take a look, for example, at the way Defiance is both an MMO and a TV Show. The MMO is getting far more attention that it may deserve because people are also interested in the TV show. Can you imagine a similar tie-in show on SyFy for Pathfinder? A live-action show called "Pathfinder Society" about an adventuring company? Heck, I'd watch that, even if the effects and writing were Sharknado-level bad.

What do you think? Should companies like Paizo try to compete for that brand identity space in the general public?
 

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Scrivener of Doom

Adventurer
I don't know - that ICV2 chart that everyone takes as gospel says D&D is still #2 in sales. Presumably that's mostly coming from the reprint hardcovers and there has been a steady stream of those. (snip)

Actually, if you read the initial ICV post, very few people take those numbers as gospel because they only reflect a small portion of distribution.

Also, the fact that D&D is still number 2 on that list with essentially no new product suggests that there is the potential for an enormous gulf in relative sales between number 1 and number 2. But who really knows? The ICV numbers are not gospel.
 

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Lord_Blacksteel

Adventurer
I agree that it's not gospel - being a little bit sarcastic there. But if you recall the first time it was posted showing that Pathfinder had passed D&D the internet was buried in pronouncements on forums and blogs that D&D was dead etc - all from this one less than comprehensive source. Since then a lot of people still seem to give those numbers more weight than they deserve.

There could be big gaps at any point in that chart - without the actual numbers it's impossible to know the relative positioning of each item.
 


Wicht

Hero
Yup; Pathfinder first grabbed the icV2 top spot in q3 2011, a full quarter before D&D Next was announced; and has held it since then.

I suspected at the time that one of the reasons for announcing D&D Next when they did was worry caused by the loss of the #1 spot to Pathfinder.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I suspected at the time that one of the reasons for announcing D&D Next when they did was worry caused by the loss of the #1 spot to Pathfinder.

I doubt it; the press event (which EN World had someone at) was arranged months and months in advance.
 

Wicht

Hero
I doubt it; the press event (which EN World had someone at) was arranged months and months in advance.

How many months, out of curiosity? Remembering that before Paizo grabbed the top spot, they held it in tandem for a short while, essentially in a dead heat. When Paizo moved into #1, I know I was not surprised at all, as anecdotal evidence from a number of different fields had made it fairly clear what was happening. The writing was on the wall for some months before the ICV2 2011 q3 announcement was actually made. So, if Paizo moved into the top spot three months or so before the announcement was made, and if insiders knew the state of the market for at least 3 months before that, I could still see the two being related. I think it goes without saying that if 4th had done as well as desired, 5th would not have been announced so early and the clearest indication that the game was in trouble was the success (warranted imo) of Paizo in establishing Pathfinder as a viable market leader.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
I doubt it; the press event (which EN World had someone at) was arranged months and months in advance.

Probably not as a proximate cause, but I suspect WotC saw the writing on the wall and the direction things were headed even without ICv2's Q3 2011 report, particularly since Paizo had already cracked the top spot in a tie with D&D a year earlier with 2010's Q3 report. Over the last few years, Paizo has alluded to other data sources indicating they've got a pretty strong showing against D&D and I'd be surprised if WotC doesn't make use of equivalent or the same sources. If this is true, and I have no reason to doubt it, I expect Pathfinder's inroads into the D&D market share and dominance was a significant factor in cutting 4e's product schedule short in favor of an new edition's extended R&D and playtest period.
 

Radiating Gnome

Adventurer
Probably not as a proximate cause, but I suspect WotC saw the writing on the wall and the direction things were headed even without ICv2's Q3 2011 report, particularly since Paizo had already cracked the top spot in a tie with D&D a year earlier with 2010's Q3 report.

It's been pointed out before, but this report is just one avenue -- it's Pathfinder's primary avenue, but WOTC still has the DDI subscription going -- and even conservative estimates of that subscriber base would make some big changes to those figures. I think it's dangerous to read too much into just that one report.

Still, the upward trend of Pathfinder is strong, and it's fan base tends towards the fervent. It will be interesting to see what it takes to chip away at the pathfinder fanbase to win people back to D&D.

Also -- sales figures are still not a great way to try to measure the power of brand identity. I'd still argue that if you ask someone who is not part of the RPG community what Pathfinder is they're very unlikely to have any clear sense of what it is.

-rg
 

tomBitonti

Adventurer
Still, the upward trend of Pathfinder is strong, and it's fan base tends towards the fervent. It will be interesting to see what it takes to chip away at the pathfinder fanbase to win people back to D&D.

-rg

Not sure if this is in the same thread, but is Pathfinder still trending upwards? My feeling is that the product line is saturated: The core books plus the "advanced" books are more or less complete, and there is a huge number of adventure paths, modules, and work guide books available. There are still new miniatures being sold, but that seems to be a smallish part of the Pathfinder space.

I know there is the upcoming Pathfinder Online (I am a backer), which could be huge (or smallish, or might fail; time will tell), but my overall feel is that the product line is shifting into a "mature" part of it's lifecycle.

Seriously, isn't the Roleplaying product segment just a bit overfilled at this point? I get to feeling that what is needed more are refinements, not whole new systems. Perhaps that's what D&DNext will be -- a refinement of OSR style play -- but having a whole new dramatically different system seems to be the wrong direction.

All based on my personal sense of the matter. YMMV.

Thx!

TomB
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
It's been pointed out before, but this report is just one avenue -- it's Pathfinder's primary avenue, but WOTC still has the DDI subscription going -- and even conservative estimates of that subscriber base would make some big changes to those figures. I think it's dangerous to read too much into just that one report.

???

One report? Didn't I just say that Paizo has alluded to other data sources?
 

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