Is there a lot of drama in your world?

I just get this feeling that there is a heck of a lot of drama in everyone's campaign settings. Like gods and titans running around and stomping on the earth and you can kill them and rob them, too. Dragons are quite common and you can either kill the one around the corner or buy one and ride it. The players are the center of the universe and their actions can change the entire world around them.

Also, I think a lot of people have these post-apocalyptic punk worlds where everything has been decimated, but there's some bizarre magic system or new race of cannabilistic, gothic-cybernaut elves. There seems to be quite a bit of talk about "The Great and Monolithic Evil" conspiring to rise up to destroy everyone, too. The world is about to be decimated!

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with any of this. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings is like this, too. The Great War, right? High drama! Also, I think it's great that people are trying to be creative and think up of new things like that. I'm just surprised at how many people run campaigns like this. Is this the norm? Is this what people like?

I always thought most people ran pretty standard D&D worlds like Greyhawk or something like that, but I just don't see that right now. It seems like the majority is wanting to do something "different" and high drama, but it ends up not being so different or interesting in the end because everyone else is doing it or has done it. What do you think?

Sir Edgar said:

I just get this feeling that there is a heck of a lot of drama in everyone's campaign settings. Like gods and titans running around and stomping on the earth and you can kill them and rob them, too. Dragons are quite common and you can either kill the one around the corner or buy one and ride it. The players are the center of the universe and their actions can change the entire world around them.

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My campeigns tend to be highly dramatic, but the players are hardly the center of the universe. They are usually victems of their environment trying to survive and accomplish some other goals (usually of their own choosing).

Their actions can change the world around them- its called living.

SD

Our group prefers the middle road. If every other event is high drama...then soon even the most dramatic events aren't so dramatic anymore.

I think having those mundane moments adds a bit of contrast...just enough so that when drama happens it has real impact.

I voted for high drama, but I have to say I find your definition of drama rather funny.

It sounds like you're calling high power campaigns as high drama. What's dramatic about buying a dragon? In specific, it sounds like you're talking about high player power. Which to my mind reduces the potential for drama.

My campaign definitely has gods stomping about although nobody picks their pockets (and these aren't gods in the typical sense either) -- no dragons but hordes of demons, dinosaurs and other stuff.

So yeah, high power. High campaign power, at least. Very low player power, however -- my PCs are hopelessly outclassed by their opposition and have to resort all sorts of sneaky stratagems.

But for me, high drama means something quite different. It means emotional turmoil, last-minute escapes, desperate stands against overwhelming odds and sticking by your friends when all the world is against you.

And yeah, I try to have lots of that, too.

I've never known a soul who ran Greyhawk, FR or any pre-bought campaign setting. The whole notion seems weird to me. The whole POINT of DMing, to me, is making up a cool world and filling it with cool stuff.

It seems like the majority is wanting to do something "different" and high drama, but it ends up not being so different or interesting in the end because everyone else is doing it or has done it.

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Wow, snarky much? So you're saying my campaign is not different or interesting? That it is, in fact, dull? Whatever.

Fortunately for us both, you don't play in my campaign. So you don't have to put up with my pretended creativity and I don't have to put up with your disinterest. How well that works out!

Barsoomcore, I don't want to engage in a flamewar because I did not try to personally insult anyone (including you, especially since I don't know you). But in a way, you have proven my point. You're saying no one you know has run a setting like Greyhawk and so you're implying that they create worlds similar to yours. So, one can assume that they are also high drama or high power, if you prefer. Getting us to the topic of "high drama" vs. "high power"...

You're right, I think I could have been clearer in defining what my definition of "high drama" vs. "high power". Thank you for pointing that out. To me, they are equivalent in many ways. In my opinion, when someone puts high power things like gods, titans, and dragons all over the place (that are meant to add a bit of drama) it in effect decreases their dramatic effect. Do you understand what I'm saying? Normally, when you meet a god it is like, "Wow, I'm blown away by the tremendous presence of this deity!" But if they're all over the place, then there's nothing special about the encounter and the dramatic effect is gone. Same goes for titans, dragons, etc. But that's just my opinion.

Just because we differ on opinions, doesn't mean you have to feel insulted and start a flame war. I'm sorry if we have different viewpoints on how we look at things, but that's how things are supposed to be. In no way did I intend to hurt anyone's feelings.

I voted average, but in reality its average to low drama. IMC, gods are prohibited from entering the world (including avatars), but they can still use clerics to enact their will. 7th level spells are the highest level spells possible to cast, and 5th-7th level spells require lengthy rituals to perform. Dragons are so rare that they are thought to be fictional (the PCs have never run into one). Demons are fairly common, but not the MM type demons- more corruptors and temptors than combat machines. There is no worldwide source of evil like Sauron, but instead numerous minor villains/evil organizations each with their own agenda and purpose. I do use some Cthulhu-like creatures as elder beings in my game, but they are extremely rare. For the most part, humans dominate the world, elves are fey creatures that keep to themselves and harass/attack humans entering their lands, dwarves are isolationist and greedy, but sometimes willing to trade with humans, and there are no halflings, half-elves, or gnomes. I suppose my world is much more a dark fantasy/true Grimm's fairy tale kind of place. I focus more on PC interaction with NPCs than on save the world plots. Finally, morality is a fairly relative thing IMC- several times the PCs have found themselves opposing other NPCs who would be classified as LG, NG, or CG.

To me, I find games that try to artifically keep the drama level high boring, repetetive, and pretensious. You can only save the world so many times before you wonder "If this world is in such danger of being destroyed/taken over/radically changed on a daily basis, how did we make it this long?!?!?"

Sir Edgar said:

Barsoomcore, I don't want to engage in a flamewar because I did not try to personally insult anyone (including you, especially since I don't know you).

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You DID say that people who run campaigns that are not "normal" (whatever your definition of that may be) always end up running dull campaigns. I believe you when you say you were not trying to personally insult anyone, but what you said was pretty snarky and I don't like starting debates off with some not-stated-outright prejudice. I'd rather get prejudices out in the open where we can all stomp on them.

But in a way, you have proven my point. You're saying no one you know has run a setting like Greyhawk and so you're implying that they create worlds similar to yours.

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Except that there is an infinity of possibilities if our only criteria is "not like Greyhawk". Literally. I am not implying any similarity at all. Two campaigns can be unlike Greyhawk and yet utterly unlike each other. There's no implication of similarity at all.

So, one can assume that they are also high drama or high power, if you prefer.

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Go right ahead. There's no evidence to suggest that, but you can assume anything you like.

To me, they (high drama and high power) are equivalent in many ways. In my opinion, when someone puts high power things like gods, titans, and dragons all over the place (that are meant to add a bit of drama) it in effect decreases their dramatic effect. Do you understand what I'm saying?

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Yes, I do. you're first of all saying high drama and high power are equivalent, and then you're saying high power decreases drama, so presumably they're opposites. It's confusing, but yes, I understand what you're saying.

I don't see that power has anything to do with drama at all. Drama is produced by a difference in relative power, not by some absolute level of power. If you have the power of a god, there can still be drama, but only if you're matched against something that is in fact more powerful than you, or a threat to you in some way.

And that's only if you consider drama as something produced purely by power imbalances, and ignore personal and emotional sources of drama.

Normally, when you meet a god it is like, "Wow, I'm blown away by the tremendous presence of this deity!" But if they're all over the place, then there's nothing special about the encounter and the dramatic effect is gone. Same goes for titans, dragons, etc. But that's just my opinion.

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I don't derive drama from the presence of powerful entities. Or at least I try not to. I try to derive drama from relationships, from timing, from moral conflicts.

In a campaign where players play gods, meeting a god is not going to be like, "Wow!" Meeting a mortal, in fact, might be more like, "Wow," depending on how your DM has structured his campaign. Neither is intrinsically better than the other. It all depends on your preferences.

Just because we differ on opinions, doesn't mean you have to feel insulted and start a flame war.

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I don't feel insulted because we differ on opinions. I feel insulted because you called my campaign dull. It's not a big deal, since I know you don't know the first thing about my campaign, but if you don't want me to call you on your insulting comments, then don't make them.

I'm sorry if we have different viewpoints on how we look at things, but that's how things are supposed to be.

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I'm not the slightest bit sorry. I'm glad we have different viewpoints. We'd have very little to talk about otherwise.

In no way did I intend to hurt anyone's feelings.

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I believe you, and I thank you for the clear statement of position. I hope I've been equally clear -- I have not intended to nor do I believe I have in fact insulted you. If your feelings were hurt by anything I said, I apologize.

Sir Edgar said:

I always thought most people ran pretty standard D&D worlds like Greyhawk or something like that, but I just don't see that right now. It seems like the majority is wanting to do something "different" and high drama, but it ends up not being so different or interesting in the end because everyone else is doing it or has done it. What do you think?

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Barsoomcore, if you look above, you'll see that I never said because so many people are trying to do something different means that it ends up being "dull", as you say I said (twice at that!) I never used that term. I'm just saying it becomes less "interesting" in that it is less "different" because everyone else is trying to be just that, different.

In no way am I a proponent of universal conformity in campaign settings. I think it's great that people are using different styles and even inventing their own. What I am saying is that has become so predominant that these "different" settings are becoming less "special", for lack of a better word.

So, I never said dull. I did say less "interesting" in the sense that it is part of the norm so not as likely to be considered "different". I don't want to nitpick on words, but sometimes online there are a lot of misunderstandings and I can only blame myself for not being more clear. Regardless, that does not mean that your setting or any other setting like this is "dull" or not "interesting", as it could be perfectly fun to play in. What I am saying is that because there are so many like that (as it appears that the majority of settings are like that now), they are no longer considered "different" in my mind.

Anyhow, the frequent use of many "high power" factors such as gods, titans, and dragons can devalue their dramatic effect. I think what you're saying, on the other hand, is that if everyone is a god, then the dramatic effect is no longer a factor. Instead, you focus on emotions, plots, etc for the drama. That is fine. But in effect, you have decreased the dramatic effect of such "high power" factors (gods, titans, dragons, etc.) and simply transferred it to somewhere else (emotions, plots, etc). Thus, your setting I would guess is "naturally" high drama.

Re: Re: Is there a lot of drama in your world?

Sir Edgar said:

I never said dull. I did say less "interesting".

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Not interesting == dull. But whatever. Unimportant.

Anyhow, the frequent use of many "high power" factors such as gods, titans, and dragons can devalue their dramatic effect.

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The frequent use of ANYTHING devalues its ability to cause tension. If the hero stands on the edge of a cliff, that's dramatic and exciting -- until he's been standing there for an hour without any problem.

I think what you're saying, on the other hand, is that if everyone is a god, then the dramatic effect is no longer a factor. Instead, you focus on emotions, plots, etc for the drama.

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I haven't been clear. Power issues are one source of tension, with that I agree. Having the characters encounter entities of vastly greater power than they can produce drama. But it is not the ONLY source of drama, I hope you will also agree. Dramatic tension can be created in ways that have nothing to do with power.

But if you are using power to generate drama, my point is that it's RELATIVE power that creates the drama, not absolute power. Gods impress characters in campaigns where the characters do not possess equivalent power. Where character possess godlike power, they will be impressed by entities that possess even greater power. You can always come up with something bigger, if you want to generate drama via power.

I would say, however that power is not even the BEST source of drama. In my mind, drama is more reliably and effectively created through "character-based" means -- story, emotion, yada yada yada. I use these means regardless of the power level of the campaign I am running.

So I am not "substituting" one method for another. I use both, as I am sure virtually all DMs do.

That is fine. But in effect, you have decreased the dramatic effect of such "high power" factors (gods, titans, dragons, etc.) and simply transferred it to somewhere else (emotions, plots, etc).

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Again, you seem to think one can EITHER generate drama by having a dragon appear, or by having a character's sister get kidnapped, but not both. I don't understand. I use both.

Actually, my campaign has only ONE dragon, and he's been dead for three thousand years, and the players haven't met him yet, but never mind. My point is two-fold:

One: Relative power is the issue, not absolute power. It is entirely possible to come up with big nasties that scare gods, so having lots of gods in your campaign does not in and of itself reduce the available drama in your campaign. If your PCs are the most powerful things around, then yes, of course it becomes difficult to generate drama through power issues, but the absolute power level of the PCs has nothing to do with where they rank on the power scale of a campaign, and thus has nothing to do with how much drama power issues can provide for you.

Two: Drama is generated by a host of factors IN ADDITION to power imbalances, none of which are incapable of co-existing. I use as many as I can.

I try to make my campaign both dramatic (in the English meaning of the word) and dramatique (in its French meaning -- basically, sad and heart-breaking).

My campaign world is an ugly place...