Ask an OTTer

goldomark said:

So you do not expect us to change cause all of you non-mods asked?

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I don't expect you guys to change, no. Which is why I had reported a couple things. I'm only posting in this thread because the original post seemed honest and open to discussion.

bone_naga said:

But returning to the topic of forum posts rather than RL scenarios, especially in the context of Umbran's post on the handling of reports, wouldn't it make more sense to at least make it known to the poster that you have a problem with him before reporting him?

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Like I said, if I don't think they're receptive, I won't even try. That was the case with this group of posters prior to this thread, though my feeling that they might be open to discussion is basically gone now for some posters (though not completely, and not for every poster).

bone_naga said:

Or just add him to your ignore list and move on? Sometimes people are just rude and insensitive by nature (or choice) but sometimes it really is unintentional.

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I don't have anyone on my ignore list, but it definitely works for some situations. However, if I think a particular poster is making the entire site worse off because of his posts, that's when I'll report it. (It's also why nobody is on my ignore list; I want that ability to see such posts, so I can let the mods know and they can make that decision.)

Janx said:

Thats a really good point. And it is why we DO give credit to what a regular says, instead of assuming he's lying about his profession.

We've all been here a long time. We had like one case of a dude running a long con on who he was including faking his own coma to draw out sympathy.

Otherwise, we all pretty much trust that Morrus is who he says he is. Umbran is a Physics guy in Boston (which implies some big name places he might work at). Danny is an entertainment lawyer (not a trial lawyer) in Dallas. I'm not outing these guys. This is known "public" information within EN world. I respect these guys and their knowledge.

One of the things I like about Danny when he waxes legal, is he clarifies what he knows by general trade, or what he has or doesn't have in direct experience. If he's talking about trial law, he will point out that he is not a trial lawyer and has general lawyer-grade knowledge, but not extensive experience. I can accept his info is mostly accurate until a trial lawyer shows up to ammend/append his information.

In an ideal, respectful situation, said trial lawyer wouldn't just shout Danny down. He'd acknowledge that Danny was giving basic information "that all lawyers know" and then he'd just go into his corrections as "clarifications." I've seen Umban and some of the other resident Physics guys do this, and generally I'm impressed by the professionalism.

What usually doesn't impress me is the guy who likes Physics and obviously knows more than me, but less than the Phd's who insists on arguing about how wrong they are. these kind of things seem more like go challenges, and are really traps for the experts. Folks like Umbran will and do take the time to explain the details of something. But it really mires down a thread if they fall for an argument about some fact.

So, when I advise "don't argue with the experts", that's my personal preference to avoid dragging down a thread.

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You know, that's the thing. You guys have had a long time to get to know each other. You've had very little time, and some of you appear to have had very little interest, in getting to know our expertise or who we actually are. So yeah, I get that when someone who has been on here a long time says something in their area of expertise, you guys take it at face value. However, you are expecting people who do not have that history of knowing you guys, to do the same. At the same time, you guys are not considering that some of us may be experts in some of the topics that have been discussed. Some have taken what information has been given, and dismissed it. So again, it appears that you guys are asking us to do something that you aren't willing to do yourself. It's not helpful to anyone to say one thing and do another.

Morrus said:

That may be what you're used to, but many of us aren't anonymous. If you stick around a while, you'll realise that many of the relationships on this board extend into real life. I've made dozens of real-life friends here (some of them I only see occasionally when I cross the Atlantic to do so; others more frequently). we meet at Game Days and conventions. We visit each others' homes. Our real names, in many cases, are public knowledge, especially those who work in gaming - mine isn't exactly a secret.

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It still doesn't mean egos need to be brought here will all the drama that comes with it.

Janx said:

Thats a really good point. And it is why we DO give credit to what a regular says, instead of assuming he's lying about his profession.

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I didn't assume he did. You need to read what I wrote.

Homicidal_Squirrel said:

You know, that's the thing. You guys have had a long time to get to know each other. You've had very little time, and some of you appear to have had very little interest, in getting to know our expertise or who we actually are. So yeah, I get that when someone who has been on here a long time says something in their area of expertise, you guys take it at face value. However, you are expecting people who do not have that history of knowing you guys, to do the same. At the same time, you guys are not considering that some of us may be experts in some of the topics that have been discussed. Some have taken what information has been given, and dismissed it. So again, it appears that you guys are asking us to do something that you aren't willing to do yourself. It's not helpful to anyone to say one thing and do another.

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One thing to consider is I never asked Umbran if he was an physicist, or if Danny was a lawyer. At some point, a topic came up in their area of expertise, and they contributed and mentioned that they know of the topic by way of their respective careers.

Nobody's offered their relevant credentials yet, so it hasn't come up.

Another variable is you are new. You have no established track record of expertise and having not seen any mentioned any in a relevant thread, haven't begun establishing one.

I don't really know what you guys do for a living. If we hit a technical topic (or on review of a past topic), you'll quickly see what my expertise and profession is.

Personally, I don't care for getting to know people threads for individuals. I learn who has common hobbies by way of what threads we both participated in. That works for me.

Janx said:

One thing to consider is I never asked Umbran if he was an physicist, or if Danny was a lawyer. At some point, a topic came up in their area of expertise, and they contributed and mentioned that they know of the topic by way of their respective careers.

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True, but as goldomark pointed out, it's the internet and while some of you guys know each other in person, we don't know you guys in person, nor do you guys know us in person. So, for example, I can claim to be a psychologist, a lawyer, a chemist, or Ju Jutsu instructor . Would you believe me if I did?

Nobody's offered their relevant credentials yet, so it hasn't come up.

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Some people don't feel a need to advertise their expertise.

Another variable is you are new. You have no established track record of expertise and having not seen any mentioned any in a relevant thread, haven't begun establishing one.

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Right. we are new to you guys, and you guys, while this is a site you have been on for some time, are new to us. So it's pretty much the same situation on both sides. We haven't built up a track record of expertise with you guys, and you guys haven't built up a track record of expertise with us. So we get into these situations where you guys expect something from us without doing the same in return. In the end, it's unfair to both groups.

I don't really know what you guys do for a living. If we hit a technical topic (or on review of a past topic), you'll quickly see what my expertise and profession is.

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You could always ask. While we don't go around advertising our occupations, we aren't opposed to sharing that information when asked.

Personally, I don't care for getting to know people threads for individuals. I learn who has common hobbies by way of what threads we both participated in. That works for me.

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Sorry, but that is a bit confusing. Could you clarify?

Homicidal_Squirrel said:

True, but as goldomark pointed out, it's the internet and while some of you guys know each other in person, we don't know you guys in person, nor do you guys know us in person. So, for example, I can claim to be a psychologist, a lawyer, a chemist, or Ju Jutsu instructor . Would you believe me if I did?

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Consider the possibility that on EN World, if you say what you do for a living, we will all assume that it is true unless contradictory information comes up later.

For example, if you pointed out that you were a mental health professional in the woman killer her bad husband discussion, that would actually change the context of your points in that discussion from armchair quarterback to somebody who actually knows their stuff.

Homicidal_Squirrel said:

Some people don't feel a need to advertise their expertise.

Right. we are new to you guys, and you guys, while this is a site you have been on for some time, are new to us. So it's pretty much the same situation on both sides. We haven't built up a track record of expertise with you guys, and you guys haven't built up a track record of expertise with us. So we get into these situations where you guys expect something from us without doing the same in return. In the end, it's unfair to both groups.

You could always ask. While we don't go around advertising our occupations, we aren't opposed to sharing that information when asked.

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It's our school playground. You're the new kids. Sadly, the outsiders got more to prove if they want to be accepted. I think Celebrim wrote some lengthy verbiage about that in the sexism thread under RPG talk. Nobody liked his point, but I recognize that it is the way humans work.

Like the suggested guidelines I gave before, my advice isn't particularly great or fair. It's just a means to blend in and not offend. Being the least offensive person in the conversation seems a reasonable strategy. That way, if there's bad behavior, it isn't on you.

As an example, I have been in a thread where I tried to make a point and blundered badly. It royally angered some people. We're talking lots of post reportings. I recieved ZERO warnings. Why? Because on review of my statements in the thread, I said nothing hostile. I was debating a point (and losing because I said it wrong), but did not cross the line. I later apologized for my remarks as I had still clearly not made a good point. But the difference is that if done civilly, you're not the bad guy.

Homicidal_Squirrel said:

Sorry, but that is a bit confusing. Could you clarify?

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I meant that I'm not into reading a thread that is an introduction from a new member. I'm not going to ask any questions to that person (as I have not asked you guys any questions in this thread). I'd rather meet the new member as they join a thread in progress and they add to the conversation.

Janx said:

Consider the possibility that on EN World, if you say what you do for a living, we will all assume that it is true unless contradictory information comes up later.

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Right, but again, we're the new guys here, and we aren't familiar with those rules or have had the time to experience that. This is unfair to both sides, again.

For example, if you pointed out that you were a mental health professional in the woman killer her bad husband discussion, that would actually change the context of your points in that discussion from armchair quarterback to somebody who actually knows their stuff.

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Okay, I'm a mental health professional. How do you feel about my comments in that thread now?

It's our school playground. You're the new kids. Sadly, the outsiders got more to prove if they want to be accepted. I think Celebrim wrote some lengthy verbiage about that in the sexism thread under RPG talk. Nobody liked his point, but I recognize that it is the way humans work.

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Which as I said, it's unfair to both sides. Yeah, you've been here longer, but assuming that people will just come in an take your word at face value when you won't take their's is a bit naive.

Like the suggested guidelines I gave before, my advice isn't particularly great or fair. It's just a means to blend in and not offend. Being the least offensive person in the conversation seems a reasonable strategy. That way, if there's bad behavior, it isn't on you.

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That right there is a problem. If you can't be fair, you can't expect that others will be able to acclimate to the social rules you have around here. You are basically saying "These are the rules you have to follow when dealing with us. We have a different set of rules we are going to follow when dealing with you."

Homicidal_Squirrel said:

Right, but again, we're the new guys here, and we aren't familiar with those rules or have had the time to experience that. This is unfair to both sides, again.

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Nor did you keep your mouth shut and observe to see how things work around here and then attempt to post like the locals. As most new people do as lurkers and then first time posters when a topic strikes their interest or they have a question they feel the community can answer.

Instead, it seems as if you came on here as if this was "the internet" and did your own thing. EN's on the internet. But it is NOT the internet. I observe each forum I am interested in before I post, and I try to post to their standard or better if I can (doesn't mean I'm good at it).

Bear in mind, my thoughts on the matter aren't official, fair or well put.

Homicidal_Squirrel said:

Okay, I'm a mental health professional. How do you feel about my comments in that thread now?

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Would you really challenge the findings of 3 professionals (apparently 3 pros reviewed her from the article I didn't read in that thread)? Is Mental Health in such condition that quality standards among such people varies? I really have no idea.

In a parallel case, I have advised Morrus on his current IT project when I raised some questions he didn't understand, that his developer better be able to answer them (to him), else he has a bad developer problem brewing.

It's possible such a behavior is rude, but I did couch it in qualifying terms, instead of saying a guy I didn't meet who has information I haven't seen given to him is bad.

Homicidal_Squirrel said:

Which as I said, it's unfair to both sides. Yeah, you've been here longer, but assuming that people will just come in an take your word at face value when you won't take their's is a bit naive.

That right there is a problem. If you can't be fair, you can't expect that others will be able to acclimate to the social rules you have around here. You are basically saying "These are the rules you have to follow when dealing with us. We have a different set of rules we are going to follow when dealing with you."

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Do you want to join the secret order of secret stuff or not? Membership is neither worth it nor not worth it. It simply is a matter of being on the inside or outside of a house on a row of houses. There are plenty to choose from, and you can be happy in this one, or you can choose another. It's OK.

I've described some tricks I've learned to assimilate or blend in. Human behavior isn't always fair, especially with regards to existing groups and newcomers. I'm not a sociologist, but the behavior jives with what I've read.

I got no other advice. I appreciate that Zombie recognized I was suggesting to move off the point of the woman who killed her bad husband that nobody agrees was bad or not. And that somebody else re-newed the conversation a post later so it spun on again. I don't think anybody was being bad, but a dead horse was continuing to suffer.

Each one of us can't control the other. I can't make anybody follow the rules I suggested. I'm advising that if you retain the clarity, when you spot the situation, that's when YOU can change what your doing. On EN world, such situations aren't usually baiting or trolling. It's more like a behavioral quirk kicks in and we get stuck debating something that we should really just gracefully back out of. I think it is one of the keys that makes any of us argue too long or too hard, instead of listen or discuss.

So to heck with fair. Just do the best you can to be polite, understanding and diplomatic, and let the other guy then stand out as the problem. If he goes overboard, that'll be on him. If he just missteps a little, well hopefully you both can avoid that trigger next time for his own sake.

Well, having read through all of these posts, I now feel as though I understand some of the recent exchanges on the forums slightly better. At the very least I now know what an OTTer is.

I have to say, I've been on these boards, and on Eric Noah's predecessor boards, for I guess about 13 years now. I post moderately regularly, though as you can see by my post count, I've certainly not burned up the boards over the decade or more that I've been here.

That said, I think that ENWorld works very well on the basis of the rules that it has, and it's moderators are very good and very respectful of the posters. In return, I've always sought to be respectful toward them. And when a Mod says something, I tend to take it seriously. When Morrus says something, I take it VERY seriously, because I value these boards and the culture they've created, and don't want to be deprived of that, either by my own behavior or someone else's.

What the moderation on these boards does well, I think is to provide a venue where people not only can talk civilly, but expect to talk civilly. From way back, we have adhered to the "Eric's grandma" rule, which goes like this: "If you are planning to say something that would likely offend Eric Noah's grandmother, don't." I think that's a pretty good rule, and totally appropriate given that when the rule was established, Eric was running the site and paying the bills. Now Morrus is doing that, and the rule still stands, because again, we're guests in Morrus's house.

In over a decade of posting, I've only gotten spanked once, lightly, by a mod because of an exchange I had, and it was good for me in that it provided me an opportunity to catch my breath, step back, and let go of what by then was clearly an unproductive argument. So I did: I let it go and moved on. I don't really see the value in intentionally irritating people in a forum where that's frowned upon, when what people come here for is a bit of friendly give and take.

Upthread, someone made the point that the OTTers tease and poke just like real friends do. But of course the obvious problem is that, while we're all friendly, in many cases we're not "friends." When my friends tease me, it's based on a long-term set of relationships, a mutual knowledge of one another, and the ability to gauge what counts as "going too far." Recently a friend of long standing made a joke at my daughter's expense around the gaming table. I politely suggested that doing that wasn't cool with me, and he stopped. That's how friends deal with one another.

But here, we often don't have those relationships to fall back on, and we don't have the context to determine when a remark, intended in fun, can go astray. And in many regards that seems to be part of what's caused the "culture clash" here with the OTTers. For my part, I'm happy to welcome anyone from the WOTC boards here, who are willing to play by the rules we've all agreed to, even tacitly, by virtue of having joined the boards.