Ask an OTTer

Janx said:

Snipped a bunch of really nicely put and well considered information

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Sorry about the massive snip - it was a lot of text that I agree with for the most part. I just wanted to acknowledge it and thank you for taking the time to really make an effort to reach us. There are some things I could debate with you there - some things that, IME, actually work out a li'l differently than you explain - but overall it was a nicely written piece of advice. Thank you. Despite how some people have treated me here so far it's people like you that make me think this place could work out.

Bullgrit said:

Question:
Do OTTers generally prefer to argue rather than discuss? It does seem to me that some folks would, indeed, rather pick a fight for the hell of it rather than simply discuss a topic for better understanding. Is my impression of you correct, or am I misreading? (On a different forum, years ago, there was a clique who claimed the forum was their own personal Fight Club, and they were open and up front about it.)

Bullgrit

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Bull, I saw you posted something after this so first let me apologize for not answering sooner. I was dealing with an oil change and a damned dead battery.

Ok, here we goes: Honestly? It depends. For the most part we're an opinionated bunch (who typically do not agree with one another ... er, it's almost half of us and the other half) that has honed our online debate skills among real online friends ... which is something we sometimes forget. I can get away with calling a friend an a-hole when arguing with him, for example, but I wouldn't be able to do that with a stranger and come off as anything but an a-hole myself even if I was only playing around. We've got to remember we're among strangers.

Overall, though, we like to discuss. We typically don't see arguing as a bad thing, though. Why is it? What's wrong with being passionate about your position so long as you remain at least somewhat open? I have had many, many of my opinions about very real things changed through arguing with my fellow OTTers. I'm talking about things ranging from economic policy to sexism to gay marches. Yeah, serious stuff (that I know we can't talk about here - that's cool). So to me there's just as much value in argument as there is discussion.

On to that 'it depends' part now: Sometimes we'll stir the pot just to stir it. What we forget is that while we know we're doing it strangers will not. When we had the numbers in the OTT that didn't matter. It does here. I'll give a couple of examples now so you understand better what I mean by stirring the pot: We had a few go to threads where people would purposefully take unreasonable positions and argue with people doing the same. Star Bores (see?) vs Star Trek was one of our standbys. Debate threads there called for unreasonable positions, faux insults and pointless attacks on taste. Same applied to our equally enjoyable kittehs vs puppies threads. There it wasn't enough to like puppies better you had to hate kittens and prove it. Not a rule or anything like that, just expected behavior. It's all for the laugh, to blow off steam. Nobody gets hurt cuz everybody's in on it sooner or later.

You'll no doubt notice we haven't done a whole lot of that here (I, uhh, can't help but slip in Star Bores comments - force of habit, you see). We recognized that ya'all just aren't ready for that particular OTTer tradition just yet. That's cool.

JamesonCourage said:

Sorry for the delay, I had errands to do before work.

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NP.

I'm not really afraid of that happening at the store most of the time, either. I'd still just tell an employee.

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Difference in approach. So what, right?

I hope we can understand one another through a civil conversation, then.

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Yarp.

I meant "original post" and not "original poster", but yeah, I imagine there is a "culture difference" here. Nothing inherently wrong with that; there were "factions" within EN World long before you guys migrated over.

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Yep, it seems mostly a culture thing to me. What I hop ya'all realize is that while we may be different we are not here to turn this place into the Off Topic Tavern part 2. We're happy to be accepted here as-is. We just ask to be able to be ourselves - within reason. Basically, we're immigrants. We know it's a good idea to learn to speak ENWorlder but we don't want to have to stop speaking OTTer to totally fit in.

Mod warnings and potential bannings if the behavior wasn't curbed. I'll repeat myself, though: "but I'd definitely prefer civil discourse, yes." I just didn't see that as a reasonable option based on what I'd observed in this forum thus far.

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Yeah, so long as civil discourse is the first option then there's nothing wrong with this approach. It's when the report button becomes the first and then only option that I have a problem. Some seem to have taken that approach. Their loss.

Well, I have no plans to adapt to your group's style of posting in other threads, so that might mean that we're an at impasse. I don't see how it improves discussion on this site. I like that some new articles are being brought up, but I'm not a fan of the posting style most of the time.

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We're not asking you to. Again, we just wanna be ourselves. That doesn't mean you need to be like us or stop being like you.

I'd say that when people get over the idea of everything new being mean or an attack then they'll see that sarcasm and playful joking can be funny. We're a funny group and all we wanna do is have some fun. If that doesn't add to the place, well, I think we're on two totally different pages.

*Shrug*

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Ah!

Personally, I don't mind when people I find disruptive get kicked out. In fact, I tend to support that action. It never seems fair to the people I see as disruptive, obviously. But really, I love the moderators here, and the job that they do. I support them, and Morrus' right to "censor" posts he doesn't like on his site. If it means more civil discourse, I'm all for it. If that makes me seem "crappy" to you, I'm not going to work to change your perception.

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And I'm not asking you to. I appreciate your honesty in this discussion and I do believe it's provided a real look at some of the obstacles we're facing here. I don't have to agree with your approach or what you think makes for a fun place to talk (and I don't think I do) to respect you for at least showing up and telling us how you feel. Thanks. I mean that.

With all due respect, guys, we don't really care what the moderation was (or is) like on WotC's boards. We don't post there; we post here. While your plight might evoke a little transitory sympathy (as sympathetic as one can be about something as trivial as D&D messageboards), it's not something which makes any difference at all to us or how we operate - if you have a problem with WotC or their forums, take it up with them. It's nothing to do with us.

Now, this thread is starting to drift into Namecalling Avenue. That'll get this thread closed pretty quick.

I'm a damned dirty ape and I blew my post all to hell.

Srsly, though, it didn't need to be said. I really wanted to say it but the ice is getting thin.

Morrus said:

With all due respect, guys, we don't really care what the moderation was (or is) like on WotC's boards. We don't post there; we post here. While your plight might evoke a little transitory sympathy (as sympathetic as one can be about something as trivial as D&D messageboards), it's not something which makes any difference at all to us or how we operate - if you have a problem with WotC or their forums, take it up with them. It's nothing to do with us.

Now, this thread is starting to drift into Namecalling Avenue. That'll get this thread closed pretty quick.

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That stuff wasn't posted to garner sympathy or lay blame, it's simply background on why some OTTers approach certain situations as they do. It was meant to be informative and nothing more. I'm not arguing with you or trying to say it matters and should be ok or whatever, I just wanted to try to explain why it was posted. That said, message received.

Guys, can we please lay off the WotC stuff for now? I'd rather not see this thread die - especially for something one of us did. Thanks.

bone_naga said:

That's an understatement.

Guys, while I don't agree with everything Goldo says or how he says it, this much is definitely true, so just keep that in mind if this comes across as overly nitpicky or rules-lawyering or anything like that. We spent far too long dealing with really bad and inconsistent moderation that sometimes left us scratching our heads, the mods themselves would never comment on their moderation, and customer service had a default answer of "please read our really vague CoC that we never really elaborate on and every mod seems to interpret differently and the mod is always right".

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As a regular here, I think the modding is good. I've been on forums with mystery or crappy moderation. This site is better. If nothing else, I am compatible with the moddng style and the posting style here.

EN World gets new people all the time. They seem to integrate just fine, with only a few people who need some correction. Part of this is likely because they lurk for awhile, then the contribute to some posts, then they start new topics. They grow to fit in.

The OTTers seem to be a different animal. They have their own forum culture that they have transplanted here at EN World. I'm probably wrong, but I don't think the OTTers post anywhere than the Misc forum.

This certainly feels where the collision is. In some ways, it is not clear why the OTTers didn't just setup/sign up for their own free forum somewhere they could control the modding and do things exactly how they want. The Misc topic forum at EN probably wasn't meant to be the primary place of business that the OTTers used OTT for at WotC.

This won't be great advice, but it may help reduce friction. EN World is not WotC. Misc is not OTT. You are welcome to merge in with the rest of us, but posting here like you did at WotC/OTT might lead to compatibility problems.

I suspect, that if an OTTer tried to emulate the better members of EN world, after awhile, their own reputation would be enough to allow them some slack on their old behaviors. That's more like a science experiement idea than advice.

It's difficult to take someone seriously when they constantly say, "Don't take me so seriously."

It's difficult to believe someone is truly offended/hurt when they constantly tell others they are too easily offended and "butt hurt."

It's difficult to accept someone is sincerely trying to politely fit into a new community when they constantly brag about how impolite they were in another community.

Also...

When someone argues and argues about something that multiple people have politely explained, which is the better assumption to err on? That they are just honestly don't understand what everyone else has understood, or that they are a troll just trying to provoke a flame war?


Another question based on the OP:

Would the "OTTers" prefer to be treated and accepted as a group or as individuals? There are some new folks who have engaged in discussions here apparently as individuals, and there are some new folks who are apparently engaging threads as a tight clique.

Bullgrit

Mod Note: Edited at BG's request. ~Umbran

Bullgrit said:

It's difficult to take someone seriously when they constantly say, "Don't take me so seriously."

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It's really not. People can be serious sometimes and not serious others. Our mistake was in assuming that you could see the difference right off the bat - a mistake made due to our long history together.

It's difficult to believe someone is truly offended/hurt when they constantly tell others they are too easily offended and "butt hurt."

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Why can't you think someone is overreacting in one place and react justifiably negatively to something done to you? These are separate things.

It's difficult to accept someone is sincerely trying to politely fit into a new community when they constantly brag about how impolite they were in another community.

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I haven't seen a lot of that. Could you explain - caveat: Only if it's something I've lead you to believe through something I've posted in this thread. I'd rather not ask you to point out something in someone else from somewhere else. If you're not comfortable addressing anything I've done here, I understand.

Also...

When someone argues and argues about something that multiple people have politely explained, which is the better assumption to err on? That they are just honestly too dense to understand what everyone else has understood, or that they are a troll just trying to provoke a flame war?

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There's another option: They legitimately don't believe the other people are correct. Five people telling me the sky is green doesn't actually make the sky green. Now if you're talking about something like how these boards work, well, that's different and I see your point.

Another question based on the OP:

Would the "OTTers" prefer to be treated and accepted as a group or as individuals? There are some new folks who have engaged in discussions here apparently as individuals, and there are some new folks who are apparently engaging threads as a tight clique.

Bullgrit

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Ideally you'll all learn to love us and want to have our babies. We'll, of course, politely decline as we'd be terrible parents. You'll grow to resent us - at first privately - and eventually ditch us for a younger, tighter, sexier and more financially successful group of refugees.

Or not. I'd personally like to see us all be accepted. We are not one person, though, and it's not fair to treat us all the same because of an experience you've had with one of us - good or bad. It's ultimately your call. If you choose to dismiss all of us because of friction with one or two of us, so be it. I can't change your mind. It'd be a real shame, though.

You were doing great until the bolded part.

Mod Note: Correction made at BG's request. ~Umbran

Homicidal_Squirrel said:

You seem like a reasonable person, and your advice is generally pretty good. I think you do a good job of explaining what the social norms on this site are, or what people would like them to be. unfortunately, there seems to be a disconnect between what you say and what others do. That seems to be the problem It makes it harder for others to acclimate to the environment if they are presented with a set of rules that aren't the ones being followed by everyone, you know what I mean?

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Thanks. I want the new guys to fit in, and to reduce tension. I don't have a perfect solution for that, but my advice might help you blend in a bit. Outside of culture change, they seemed like decent practices.

I would view my long verbiage as the concepts I aspire to when I am on any forum. Many of which were developed here, by virtue of better behaviors I'd seen.

So overall, EN seems to run the way I write, though as I used the word "aspire", implying all of us do not perfectly achieve at all times. Even people you might currently have a problem with have inspired me to do better. We all make mistakes, or go overboard.

I should probably give you guys a new rule of thumb, since Morrus brought it up.

Coming to EN world to complain about an issue at another forum site is bad form. We're not talking the OTTers in any way. We've had newbs show up and immediately start in on how "they were wronged blah, blah, blah, take my side" and so on. Getting embroiled in inter-site arguments would drag the site down. So that kind of thing is preferred to be avoided. Obviously, some discussion happens, when referencing something, but as a general rule it seems best to minimize talking about other sites' problems.

double post