Cultural appropriation in writing?

Zander · Mar 20, 2014

Morrus said:
As long as you try not to insult or stereotype people, it's perfectly cromulent.

Agree about the need to avoid insulting people but not so sure one shouldn't stereotype. What about when the stereotype is true? What about when it's complimentary? Or both true and complimentary?

Umbran · Mar 20, 2014

Zander said:
Agree about the need to avoid insulting people but not so sure one shouldn't stereotype. What about when the stereotype is true? What about when it's complimentary? Or both true and complimentary?

Complimentary or not, stereotypes are generally oversimplifications. "All of you are like X" is kind of insulting to individuals, even if X is nice. You can get things like the "noble savage" problem.

Zander · Mar 20, 2014

Umbran said:
"All of you are like X" is kind of insulting to individuals, even if X is nice.

Really? If someone associates a group to which you belong with a positive characteristic, that's insulting? Doubtful. I'm a member of an ethnic minority. If someone outside of my ethnicity attributes to it a positive characteristic, even in a sweeping way that may not be entirely true in its generality, I would hardly feel insulted. Amused, perhaps, but not offended.

Morrus · Mar 21, 2014

Zander said:
Really? If someone associates a group to which you belong with a positive characteristic, that's insulting? Doubtful. I'm a member of an ethnic minority. If someone outside of my ethnicity attributes to it a positive characteristic, even in a sweeping way that may not be entirely true in its generality, I would hardly feel insulted. Amused, perhaps, but not offended.

I'm not sure where I stand on it - I can see what both of you are saying. I think it has hints of "you all look the same to me"; it's insulting in that it implies that an ethnicity or a nationality lacks individuality. At least, that's the point being made; certainly if someone were to say "All British people are smart" I'd - like you - not be insulted, but I'd think the speaker was pretty dumb to think such a thing could be possible.

Umbran · Mar 21, 2014

Zander said:
Really? If someone associates a group to which you belong with a positive characteristic, that's insulting? Doubtful.

I repeat: "noble savage". It is technically a positive statement, the idea being that the person has not been corrupted by civilization, and still has humanity's innate goodness. My understanding, however, is that suggesting that Native American's ancestors were Noble Savages is not considered a good thing.

Tonguez · Mar 21, 2014

Zander said:
Really? If someone associates a group to which you belong with a positive characteristic, that's insulting? Doubtful. I'm a member of an ethnic minority. If someone outside of my ethnicity attributes to it a positive characteristic, even in a sweeping way that may not be entirely true in its generality, I would hardly feel insulted. Amused, perhaps, but not offended.

I know a few 'Asians' (East Asians specifically) who get peeved about the stereotype that 'Asians' are all nerd geniuses who are good at maths and can play the violin. One guy was a fine arts student who was into punk and considered himself an anarchist another was a party girl. I also know of other brown people who hate sport even though the stereotype is that they will be athletic so yeah sometimes even positive stereotypes can be annoying

Umbran said:
This post is largely aside the point of the thread, but there's a point worth making:

That's what the critics want us to believe, so that we'll read the boring stuff they prefer

Much of *any* genre is puerile (90% of everything is crud, after all). But fantasy is no more so than any other genre. There is nothing inherent to fantasy that prevents an author from addressing serious, thought provoking subjects.

yeah fair comment and I did actually hesitate before typing that word. I'm a fan of the genre and agree that the narrative of fantasy can indeed possess gravitas. I merely meant that, within the context of the OP, nobody should be looking for authentic cultural representation within "Fantasy" which by its very nature is grounded in the authors own fabrication

Grumpy RPG Reviews · Mar 21, 2014

Morrus said:
...if someone were to say "All British people are smart" I'd - like you - not be insulted, but I'd think the speaker was pretty dumb to think such a thing could be possible.

And if someone where to say "All English people drink tea" how would you feel? Someone might mean well when talking about Chinese, Brazilians or Persians and still might be doing the same thing as saying "\"All English people drink tea" - something problematic.

Zander · Mar 21, 2014

Umbran said:
My understanding, however, is that suggesting that Native American's ancestors were Noble Savages is not considered a good thing.

I'm reluctant to open the can of worms marked "noble savage" because so much ink has been spilt in relation to it already that it's a corpus of literature in its own right. I will say though that the word "savage" in English has particular connotations that are negative, but originally it simply meant closer to nature or in its natural form or as nature intended. The French word "sauvage" is a closer approximation.

Morrus · Mar 21, 2014

Grumpy RPG Reviews said:
And if someone where to say "All English people drink tea" how would you feel? Someone might mean well when talking about Chinese, Brazilians or Persians and still might be doing the same thing as saying "\"All English people drink tea" - something problematic.

I'd think it an odd thing to say, because it's obviously untrue and a bit of a daft statement, but no - I don't think it'd offend me at all.

Kramodlog · Mar 21, 2014

Zander said:
I'm reluctant to open the can of worms marked "noble savage" because so much ink has been spilt in relation to it already that it's a corpus of literature in its own right. I will say though that the word "savage" in English has particular connotations that are negative, but originally it simply meant closer to nature or in its natural form or as nature intended. The French word "sauvage" is a closer approximation.

"Sauvage" translated in English can mean "wild". "Noble wilding" would be a good translation. Still is offensive.

I'm just not sure what cultural stereotypes have to do with cultural appropriation.