Pros and Cons of Epic Level Play?

Aenghus

Explorer
My view of the epic tier has always been influenced by the spirit of the old epic tales. the Irish stories I covered in school and those of other mythologies. A definition of "epic" which renders such tales not epic runs contrary to my purposes, and irks me to boot. There's lots of single combat against enemy heroes or legendary monsters.

The nature of epic tales varies from culture to culture, but tend to have larger than life heroes performing impossible deeds against a massive backdrop.

Insisting that logistics is the most important part of epic play is a step towards the deconstruction of the type of epic play I'm aiming for in my own game. I realise that the tales can be seen as propaganda and misdirection from the careful strategies that direct vast numbers of minions to victory, with the heroes being beside the point. figureheads, puppets or convenient targets. But I don't want a cynical modern revisioning of these tales.

I want the resolution of epic conflicts to be resolved by the interaction of heroes and monsters, peaceful or violent. There may be a backdrop of war, of faceless hordes grinding each other down, but in my game the hordes can't meaningfully affect the heroes or monsters , that's a job for the figures of mythic import.

This doesn't produce a naturalistic game, and by design messes with the "plan your way to victory" meme I have seen in earlier versions of the game, which in my experience leads to various sorts of anticlimax (e.g. total crushing victory, hopeless defeat, the enemies not being able to find each other in the fog of war).
 

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pemerton

Legend
That would be mechanical differentiation. Swim is not the same as Climb because walls are not the same as pools (unless walls and pools really are the same, which I suppose is possible).

<snip>

A wall is defined in game as being (among other things) that sort of obstacle which you can apply a climb skill check on, while a pool is defined in game as being (among other things) that sort of obstacle which you can apply a swim check on.

<snip>

I think you are meaning by 'mechanical resolution' only overall system.

<snip>

I think you are trying to count a lot of things that are mechanical differentiation as things that are not mechanical differentiation. If the fictional position determines which mechanics may be feasibly used, the setting of DCs, which resources can be expended, then we can say that it is mechanically different from another fictional position.
I am a bit confused.

Upthread, I suggested that breaking out BattleSystem - a distinctive mechanical framework for resolving mass combats - is not a particularly significant marker of paragon tier play. And part of my evidence in favour of that point was that, in my 4e game, we were able to use the skill challenge framework to resolve the PCs' leadership of the duergar during the latter's defence of their citadel against a purple worm incursion.

In post 67 you seemed to dispute this.

Now you are saying that it counts as mechanical differentiation to bring a different skill to bear based on the fictional positioning. But in a system with multiple skills/abilities, when does this not happen? And even in the imagined game where both climbing and swimming are covered by a generic Athletics or Survival skill, the fictional positioning will still matter to whether or not pitons, or "spider-like finger-pads", can be used as an augment to the attempt (typically yes for climbing, typically no for swimming).

Also, I would add: I'm not sure I agree that a wall is defined as an obstacle on which Climb skill can be applied, and a pool or stream as one on which Swim skill can be applied. This may be true in programming computer games (that is not a field with which I'm familiar). I don't think it is has to be true for a table-top RPG, and I think for many table-top RPG's it is not true. "Climb skill" is often defined simply as ability at climbing. And Swim skill as ability at swimming. Then, when we are told that a challenge involves the need to ascend steep or sheer surfaces, we know that Climb skill is relevant because we know what climbing is, and what steep/sheer surfaces are. Likewise, with appropriate substitutions, for challenges involving streams or pools, Swim skill and swimming.

There are some aspects of RPG mechanics which frequently are defined in the sort of fashion you describe: for instance, this is true of most combat stats in D&D (attack bonus, AC, damage dice, hp), which have no clear meaning within the fiction that can be prised off their system-given mechanical definitions.

A strength of this system-oriented definition of character abilities is that it supports robust tactical gaming with a wide range of technically sophisticated options. A weakness is that a large amount of purely system-to-system resolution, that doesn't need to go via the fictional positioning, undermines what is distinctive about an RPG and renders it more of a boardgame. (This is a common criticism of 4e combat. Interestingly, both 4e and Burning Wheel use movement and positioning as a key anchor point for linking the system-to-system interplay of combat mechanics to the ingame fictional situation. I can't comment on 3E in this respect; as far as classic D&D combat with its one-minute rounds is concerned, it's so abstract that I'm not sure fictional positioning matters at all to its resolution in the typical case, which is one reason why I think many D&D players regard combat as contrasting with, rather than an instance of, roleplaying.)
 

pemerton

Legend
My view of the epic tier has always been influenced by the spirit of the old epic tales.

<snip>

A definition of "epic" which renders such tales not epic runs contrary to my purposes, and irks me to boot. There's lots of single combat against enemy heroes or legendary monsters.

<snip>

Insisting that logistics is the most important part of epic play is a step towards the deconstruction of the type of epic play I'm aiming for in my own game. I realise that the tales can be seen as propaganda and misdirection from the careful strategies that direct vast numbers of minions to victory, with the heroes being beside the point. figureheads, puppets or convenient targets. But I don't want a cynical modern revisioning of these tales.

I want the resolution of epic conflicts to be resolved by the interaction of heroes and monsters, peaceful or violent.

<snip>

This doesn't produce a naturalistic game, and by design messes with the "plan your way to victory" meme I have seen in earlier versions of the game, which in my experience leads to various sorts of anticlimax
I agree with all this.

And all of this can be true without it being the case that there is no difference between the conflict with some kobolds and the conflict with Tiamat. The difference in backstory (and its salience to meaningful choices by the players), the difference in emotional weight, the difference in fictional positioning, all matter even if the basic framework of resolution (ie mechanics for resolving conflicts between small-to-modestly sized groups of individuals) haven't changed.

When you are low level, almost everyone you meet treats you as being a peer or even an inferior. And when you are high level, by contrast almost everyone you meet is your inferior. When you are low level, almost everything involves a certain amount of challenge. When you are high level, almost nothing does. What matters is less what is above you, but what is behind you. Your relationship to the established setting is changing.
The first two sentences strike me as almost truistic if used to describe the PCs relationship to the gameworld. They are not truistic if they describe the players' experience of play. When I am playing an epic game, for instance, I take it for granted that the PCs have servitors and admirers and that the lords of the world treat the PCs as their equals or superiors, for instance. But I don't necessarily want to spend the bulk of my play time resolving such encounters.

For instance, when the PCs in my game entered the besieged drow hold of Phaevorul, it didn't take them long to establish themselves as the most powerful single group of actors in the palce, and to start negotiating relationships with others on that basis. But these relationships were of interest mostly because they enable the PCs to focus on their goal, of closing down the Abyssal portals in the place as the first step in defeating a former knight of Lolth who was trying to reinvent himself as an exarch of Orcus. For instance, the members of the drow fighting fraternity whom they ordered into their service figured primarily as a source of archery during a fight with a ghoul horde (mechanically, an area burst attack for a modest amount of damage that could be triggered by a minor action: calling out "Shoot!" in Elvish).

For similar reasons, I don't think I agree that what matters more is what is behind you than what is ahead of you. Of course the backstory matters, and when you are at epic levels much of that is behind you (known to you) in a way that it is not at the start of the campaign. And the relationship of the players to backstory is different at that later part of the campaign (apart from anything else, they have contributed so much to it by their own earlier play of the campaign). But it matters not as an object of reflection in its own right, but as a component in the framing (story framing, mechanical framing, emotional framing) of the challenges ahead. Once there is no more such framing to be done - once everything has become backstory - then the campaign is over, I think.
 

Celebrim

Legend
A strength of this system-oriented definition of character abilities is that it supports robust tactical gaming with a wide range of technically sophisticated options. A weakness is that a large amount of purely system-to-system resolution, that doesn't need to go via the fictional positioning, undermines what is distinctive about an RPG and renders it more of a boardgame. (This is a common criticism of 4e combat. Interestingly, both 4e and Burning Wheel use movement and positioning as a key anchor point for linking the system-to-system interplay of combat mechanics to the ingame fictional situation. I can't comment on 3E in this respect; as far as classic D&D combat with its one-minute rounds is concerned, it's so abstract that I'm not sure fictional positioning matters at all to its resolution in the typical case, which is one reason why I think many D&D players regard combat as contrasting with, rather than an instance of, roleplaying.)

You'll pardon me for my abbreviated reply that doesn't address most of your post.

I don't think the criticism of 4e combat is that it resembles a boardgame. Or least, that wouldn't be my primary criticism of it. There are bits and peices of it I don't like because it arranges the flow between system and fiction in ways I don't like, but they weren't specifically addressed by your post. Of what you do address, on the contrary, I think it is quite appropriate that an RPG make movement and positioning critically important to the resolution system it uses for tactical combat. After all, this is entirely expected from our knowledge of combat. I think that in this sense, 4e, BW, 3e, and 1e are all in agreement. I certainly don't dislike BW's attempts at more granular combat in and of itself. While you could certainly choose to forgo the position of figures in 1e if you choose to do so, you'd be ignoring pages and pages of rules describing when you could take your shield bonus, the effects of being attacked from behind, whose attack had priority at what point during the combat, who needed to charge in order to begin to engage, who could attack who and so forth. AD&D could be granular on positioning down to the foot. Again, as far as combat goes, I think that BW clearly belongs to the same genera of game as D&D - which is what you'd expect from a 'fantasy heartbreaker'.

Likewise, if we increase the scale of combat to involve larger and larger tactical scale battles with increasing numbers of agents involved in the fiction, we would expect that - even if the resolution system evolves to cope with this - it will still take into account movement and positioning as critically important parts of the resolution.

When you say that it is not important that you use Battlesystem or some other sort of system for resolving mass combat, because you could just as easily use a generic system for resolving any sort of challenge that pays no attention to movement or positioning at all, you are saying that combat doesn't contrast with climbing a mountain or convincing a king. You are quite literally saying position and movement doesn't matter. A mass combat might as well be a footrace or an attempt to seduce a noble lady in terms of what was really important to resolving it. Indeed, depending on granularity of the system we used the exact same series of dice contests might have been used - roll perception, roll insight, roll persuade, and roll atheletics in some combination and you 'win'. Each differed from the other only in the color we gave the situation, and the color we used to justify doing the exact same thing and making the exact same mechanical choices in all the situations. While color is very important, as this example makes obvious, I don't think you could claim that in this system fictional positioning mattered much to the actual system. The color determined the sort of color we provided. The system itself only determined 'pass/fail' with relatively little input from the ficitional positioning. The two things, fictional positioning and color, are each operating on their own separate streams and not passing nearly as much information between them as they might be if we differentiated the above situations by having mechanical systems that tried to incorparate the things that distinguished tactical combat from climbing a mountain from developing a relationship with a person.

I don't think people say that combat contrasts with RP because fictional positioning is less important in combat.(!!!) That is a bizarre and tortured stance to have argued yourself into. I think people believe combat contrasts with role play because its quite possible to have a combat system and a game around combat that involves no RP at all. It's called a wargame, and the heritage of wargaming is very important to D&D and most RPGs generally - especially those with an assumption that violent combat plays a large role in their story. You could quite correctly call D&D - especially OD&D and AD&D a tactical level wargame with RPing attached to it. Your stance that OD&D or AD&D had at its backbone a combat system so abstract that fictional positioning on a board was foreign to its and unrelated to its rules is ahistorical and well frankly bizarre to the point invoking incredulity. I can't understand how you hold that position or what you are trying to say in your post if you don't hold that position.

Returning to why 4e was unfavorably compared to a boardgame, it wasn't because it had highly granular combat (as if that was new). It was because many felt that 4e only cared about fictional position when it was in tactical combat, and left everything else rather abstract and optional. It was because 4e lavished attention on combat and making combat interesting in and of itself, far beyond what it did for anything else.

Now, it is of course possible to have an RPG system without a tactical combat system attached to it, and so which treats physical combat as being just another form of RP in which the actual details of terrain, weapons, and tactics do not matter. I think for example a game like Dogs in the Vineyard definately trends in that direction, and as you've just shown you can make even 4e do that in a pinch - resolving a combat with no recourse to a combat system. But I do not think you could then say that such a game paid strong attention to the details of terrain, weapons, and tactics in differentiating between them mechanically.
 

pemerton

Legend
When you say that it is not important that you use Battlesystem or some other sort of system for resolving mass combat, because you could just as easily use a generic system for resolving any sort of challenge that pays no attention to movement or positioning at all, you are saying that combat doesn't contrast with climbing a mountain or convincing a king.
Why would a generic resolution system not pay attention to movement or positioning at all? It strike me as obvious that it would (or, at least, might, depending on what sorts of actions are declared by the players for their PCs). Perhaps you have something else in mind.

Your stance that OD&D or AD&D had at its backbone a combat system so abstract that fictional positioning on a board was foreign to its and unrelated to its rules is ahistorical and well frankly bizarre to the point invoking incredulity.
I guess it depends on the wargame. But typically fictional positioning does not play the same role in a wargame as it does in an RPG; and system looms corresponding larger.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Personally I think the attraction of Epic Play was how weird it could be in your mind. The game would look like fantasy Justice League or Avengers in your mind.

You have
  • Archmages
  • High Clerics and Arch Druids.
  • Monstrously infected warriors (werewolf fighter, vampire rogues, fey court knights)
  • Warriors with monster parts (troll arms, wings, breath weapons, eyebeams, steel skin)
  • Awakened half outisders (demigods, exarchs, divinely chosen)
  • Powerful organization leaders (planar beast shepards, king of thieves, mother of dragons)
  • Walking magic christmas trees of their own design

The real issue is getting a game to work. You have to plan epic level play in the design of low level play.
 

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