Why Do Batman Fans Hate Christopher Nolan?

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
And I found Heath Ledger to be absolutely terrible as the Joker, although it part because the part was written so badly. The joker is supposed to be actually charming, entertaining and funny - which is supposed to act in contrast to his complete brutality and disregard for life. He got maybe one joke in the entire movie. Mark Hamil is the only actor who has ever 'got' the joker and been given appropriate script to read for the character.

Like with most Batman debates, this depends a lot on which version or era you look at. Early Joker isn't so charming or funny. He's menacing and disturbing. And I appreciated that aspect of the Heath Ledger Joker.
 

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Celebrim

Legend
Like with most Batman debates, this depends a lot on which version or era you look at. Early Joker isn't so charming or funny. He's menacing and disturbing. And I appreciated that aspect of the Heath Ledger Joker.

I'm not sure which era you mean as 'early'. The Joker in his first appearance in Batman #1 is a wise cracking smooth criminal with a morbid sense of humor - and also a murderous psychopath. In fact, if you read Batman #1 you'll be less struck by how the character of the Joker has morphed than you will of the Batman. The early blue suited Batman trades puns back and forth with the Joker as often as he trades punches. Batman has yet to evolve his straight man persona, Joker has yet to evolve the notion that this is some sort of contest between him and Batman, and Batman despite campy puns has yet to evolve the notion that he can't take life.

I don't believe you've captured the Joker until he is both funny and disturbing. His ability to be both charming and menancing, and ultimately, his ability to mock us for consuming violent entertainment with Joker almost the incarnation of violent entertainment, is what's so intriguing about him as a villain. The Joker plays on the borders of being an anti-villain, then disgusts us that we'd ever rooted for him.

The only scene in the movie where they get the Joker right is the scene with the pencil, at its only about 6 seconds long.
 
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I'm not sure which era you mean as 'early'. The Joker in his first appearance in Batman #1 is a wise cracking smooth criminal with a morbid sense of humor - and also a murderous psychopath. In fact, if you read Batman #1 you'll be less struck by how the character of the Joker has morphed than you will of the Batman. The early blue suited Batman trades puns back and forth with the Joker as often as he trades punches. Batman has yet to evolve his straight man persona, Joker has yet to evolve the notion that this is some sort of contest between him and Batman, and Batman despite campy puns has yet to evolve the notion that he can't take life.

I don't believe you've captured the Joker until he is both funny and disturbing. His ability to be both charming and menancing, and ultimately, his ability to mock us for consuming violent entertainment with Joker almost the incarnation of violent entertainment, is what's so intriguing about him as a villain. The Joker plays on the borders of being an anti-villain, then disgusts us that we'd ever rooted for him.

The only scene in the movie where they get the Joker right is the scene with the pencil, at its only about 6 seconds long.

Well the "early" Batman also used a gun.....
 

Jan van Leyden

Adventurer
I don't have ever read a Batman comic, so my point of view naturally differs from other one's as I only have a vague idea of the characters to refer to.

Heath Ledger's Joker is an extremely strong character IMHO. You rarely see a villain as nihilistic and outright evil, and as chaotic as him. His motives are hard to fathom, it's next to impossible to foresee his next move. The makeup alone tells you that he is approaching hi sunset, just making the character all the more interesting. What is his history, what has made him like this? He was a successfull criminal, but how so?

Christian Bale's Batman isn't as strong a character, though the portrayal of a man living two lives where the border between them is threatened was rather convincing.

After Batman Begins, though, I still saw Batman with Michael Caine's Alfred and Morgan Freeman's Fox as a merry band of cool, anarchistic fighters for good, which didn't do the atmosphere of the film justice.
 

Richards

Legend
My problem with the Christopher Nolan "Batman" trilogy is that Batman doesn't appear in them.

Oh, sure, there's a guy named Bruce Wayne who dresses up like a bat to fight crime, but that's pretty much where the parallels end. The guy in these films is a wuss. He hides in his mansion for 8 years because he's upset about what happened to his buddy Two-Face. That's worth repeating: while crime runs rampant through Gotham City, this bozo hides in his house -- for 8 years!

And then to cap it all off, he fakes his own death so he doesn't have to be Batman anymore. He abandons Gotham City so he can run around Europe with Catwoman.

...I'm sorry, I don't know who that impostor is, but that definitely isn't Batman. The Batman I know has dedicated his entire life to being Batman, so he can fight back against the criminals who plague his city. The Batman I know sees Bruce Wayne as a part he must occasionally play between the times when he's doing his real life's work, fighting crime as Batman.

The guy in the movie trilogy has it the wrong way around: he apparently sees his role as Batman getting in the way of the fun stuff he'd like to do as Bruce Wayne. He jumped at the first chance to dump the whole Batman role so he could go party.

That said, I don't actually hate Christopher Nolan. He's made some other decent movies. I just wish when they were planning on making a Batman movie trilogy, they had given the reins to someone who would actually have Batman appear in them, instead of Nolan's pale imitation.

Johnathan
 

Celebrim

Legend
Heath Ledger's Joker is an extremely strong character IMHO. You rarely see a villain as nihilistic and outright evil, and as chaotic as him.

I can completely understand that. The Joker as portrayed by Heath Ledger does have some strong traits. He's one of the few openly Neutral Evil characters in film. I think you misunderstand if you think he's chaotic. In Chaotic Evil, there is an attitude of, "The only way to get ahead is on the backs of others." But there is no sign that his Joker character is trying to advance himself or even his own survival as an agenda - "He just wants to watch the world burn." Destruction for its own sake, often motivated because you don't believe the world is worth saving, is a neutral evil agenda.

And while the Joker as neutral evil in motivation is something I'd accept, the fact is that this character, while strong isn't what I want to see in The Joker. That makes it difficult for me to relate in the way someone with no prior experience of the character probably would. Ironically, by removing his charm, his humor, they make the joker less menacing because the really disturbing thing about the character is his charisma. We want our pure evil to look ugly, scarred, and venomous so that we can easily reject it. When that same pure evil is presented as an anti-villain, it's disturbing. This is particularly effective when you hide the evil at first, garner some empathy, and then just rub it in the person's face that the villain has no redeeming qualities at all.

His motives are hard to fathom, it's next to impossible to foresee his next move. The makeup alone tells you that he is approaching hi sunset, just making the character all the more interesting. What is his history, what has made him like this? He was a successfull criminal, but how so?

What you see as strengths, I across the board see as weaknesses. If his motives are hard to fathom, then the character hasn't been drawn well. The reason his moves are impossible to foresee, is that the character possesses profound 'magic' - the ability to conjure and teleport bombs. He seems to have no logistic trail at all. Things just happen magically because he wants them to. He has no history. He has no backstory. He has no actual means of being a successful criminal. There is no reason to think this guy could organize or create or stay in charge of an organization of the size that would be required to pull of his outlandishly complicated schemes. He's not at all a believable character, and his schemes happen with the power of plot. There is no way for a detective to anticipate him because there is no reality behind what he's doing. It's like watching the story told by a bad improvisational DM where things just happen to challenge the PC's. It's not like there is any story behind what we are watching on the screen. It's shallow and empty.

Christian Bale's Batman isn't as strong a character...

Not only is his batman completely unsympathetic and flat, so that we are never really rooting for him, but he's just not given enough time to develop the character. The story wants so much to happen in 2 hours, that by the time we jumped through all the stupid hoops necessary to advance the plot points, exposition to tell us what is going on, and minor character introductions - there just isn't any time to develop Batman. Nolan is relying on the fact that Batman is pretty darn iconic to begin with and that people are going to bring some notion of the character and that he's someone you should care about to the film.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
My problem with the Christopher Nolan "Batman" trilogy is that Batman doesn't appear in them.

Oh, sure, there's a guy named Bruce Wayne who dresses up like a bat to fight crime, but that's pretty much where the parallels end. The guy in these films is a wuss. He hides in his mansion for 8 years because he's upset about what happened to his buddy Two-Face. That's worth repeating: while crime runs rampant through Gotham City, this bozo hides in his house -- for 8 years!

And then to cap it all off, he fakes his own death so he doesn't have to be Batman anymore. He abandons Gotham City so he can run around Europe with Catwoman.

...I'm sorry, I don't know who that impostor is, but that definitely isn't Batman. The Batman I know has dedicated his entire life to being Batman, so he can fight back against the criminals who plague his city. The Batman I know sees Bruce Wayne as a part he must occasionally play between the times when he's doing his real life's work, fighting crime as Batman.

The guy in the movie trilogy has it the wrong way around: he apparently sees his role as Batman getting in the way of the fun stuff he'd like to do as Bruce Wayne. He jumped at the first chance to dump the whole Batman role so he could go party.

That said, I don't actually hate Christopher Nolan. He's made some other decent movies. I just wish when they were planning on making a Batman movie trilogy, they had given the reins to someone who would actually have Batman appear in them, instead of Nolan's pale imitation.

Johnathan

There are thousands of versions of Batman. Every writer, artist, or filmmaker interprets the character differently. He's been around nearly a century, through a thousand interpretations. To pick one and declare it "wrong" is the height of hubris. Every version of Batman is valid, from Kane's gun-toting, wisecracking Zorro-like figure through the camp crusaders of the 60s, the grim interpretations of the Dark Knight Returns, the animated versions of the 90s, through the various modern films. Nolan's interpretation of this character is perfectly valid, whether if be to your personal taste or not. Batman is grim, camp, hi-tech, low-tech, detective, action hero, gothic, procedural, hero, anti-hero, mysterious, popular, flashy, circumspect, and a hundred other things.

If that description of yours is "the Batman [you] know" you are being extremely selective. It's sure as heck not the Batman plenty of other people know, including the character's creators.
 
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you realize that the only movie to even say this is how the Joker was made was Tim Burton's Batman....and in the character's own words :

"Something like that... happened to me, you know? Sometimes I remember it one way, sometimes another; if I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"—The Joker, The Killing Joke


ugh I still can't believe I don't own a copy of that comic....
 

Tequila Sunrise

Adventurer
They have worn the paint off Batman, Spiderman, and Superman. Anytime I see a movie teased for any of these IPs it just shows that Hollywood has very little imagination.

Redbox only, if I'm even tempted to see it.
It would be refreshing to give the old stand-bys a break, and introduce some newcomers to the big screen, wouldn't it?

You liked Barman Returns?!? Ugh. I'll take Nolan's Batman movies over Burton's any day, even with that stupid Barman voice they came up with.
Well, yeah...Michelle Pfeiffer!

Oh, sure, there's a guy named Bruce Wayne who dresses up like a bat to fight crime, but that's pretty much where the parallels end. The guy in these films is a wuss. He hides in his mansion for 8 years because he's upset about what happened to his buddy Two-Face.
Interesting. I interpreted Batman's hiatus from crime fighting as part of his charade as the villain who killed Harvey. I honestly didn't notice enough emotion from Christian Bale in Aaron Eckhart's direction to surmise anything more than an impersonal alliance of good guys.

And then to cap it all off, he fakes his own death so he doesn't have to be Batman anymore. He abandons Gotham City so he can run around Europe with Catwoman.
To be fair, Anne Hathaway is hott. ;)

What you see as strengths, I across the board see as weaknesses. If his motives are hard to fathom, then the character hasn't been drawn well. The reason his moves are impossible to foresee, is that the character possesses profound 'magic' - the ability to conjure and teleport bombs. He seems to have no logistic trail at all. Things just happen magically because he wants them to. He has no history. He has no backstory. He has no actual means of being a successful criminal. There is no reason to think this guy could organize or create or stay in charge of an organization of the size that would be required to pull of his outlandishly complicated schemes. He's not at all a believable character, and his schemes happen with the power of plot. There is no way for a detective to anticipate him because there is no reality behind what he's doing. It's like watching the story told by a bad improvisational DM where things just happen to challenge the PC's. It's not like there is any story behind what we are watching on the screen. It's shallow and empty.
I don't see it as a weakness, but you are right that CN's joker isn't truly human -- I actually kinda took "I'm an agent of chaos" as "I'm literally a supernatural embodiment of Chaos." It mixes genres, but I'll be damned if I didn't love it!

The joker is supposed to be actually charming, entertaining and funny - which is supposed to act in contrast to his complete brutality and disregard for life.
For all my love of CN's trilogy, I'd totally be into watching a different Hollywood take on Batman, with more character detail and a charming Joker. This is actually the first I've ever heard that the Joker can be charming and funny.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
My problem with the Christopher Nolan "Batman" trilogy is that Batman doesn't appear in them.

Oh, sure, there's a guy named Bruce Wayne who dresses up like a bat to fight crime, but that's pretty much where the parallels end. The guy in these films is a wuss. He hides in his mansion for 8 years because he's upset about what happened to his buddy Two-Face. That's worth repeating: while crime runs rampant through Gotham City, this bozo hides in his house -- for 8 years!

In The Dark Knight Returns, he had retired for 10 years while crime ran rampant. Was that not-Batman too?
 

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