Star Wars: Disney scraps the Expanded Universe

ShinHakkaider · Apr 27, 2014

MarkB said:
Any Star Wars fans who weren't expecting the new movies to overwrite EU continuity were kidding themselves.

As most obsessives tend to do.

This thread kinda represents the alternatively the Best and Worst of fandom.
The more rational fans understanding how these things work and the other side
taking it personally and kind of lashing out at the thing they love and other fans.

I love my hobbies!

*but I REALLY sometimes hate the fandom*

Umbran · Apr 27, 2014

Alzrius said:
You managed to miss my point completely. Money isn't a good excuse in this case because the existing EU isn't a barrier to them making money. It's not standing in their way of making new stories, so the idea that they somehow need to scrap it to be able to do what they're going to do is a false one.

I will quote delerico, just above:

"The thing is that they had to do something different - they'd done "superweapon of the week" to death by that point, and had tried "evil Force user" in several different variations as well."

So, the old canon was a barrier, and led them to some things that are widely regarded as poor decisions as to what stories to tell, and collectively that canon does severely limit what stories they can tell, because some 5000 years and more of history has already been stipulated. A clean slate helps with those restrictions.

Oh, and please allow me to congratulate you on setting a respectful tone in your posting that, as a moderator, sets an example for everyone else on EN World. Keep the community classy, Umbran. (end sarcasm)

Seems to be your week for disappointment. First Disney says they won't be bound by the EU continuity, then moderators turn out to be humans, rather than logic-driven machines or Vulcans or something.

Guess what - people don't like it when you scrap large parts of their mythology. That's not an organic "retold and changed over time,".

I happen to be a fan of Aruthurian myths. I was reading a work by Peter David recently, in which he has the entire story as a parable on US politics. Arthur was cast as dim-witted, weak-willed, but altogether personally pleasant person. This was not organic "retold over time", but was instead a drastic departure from the centuries-old tradition.

Mythology gets bent to the times, always has, always will. They recast Spock. They tossed out the EU. Things change.

darjr · Apr 27, 2014

What does this mean to the RPG? How much of it is now no longer Cannon because it came from the EU? That would be weird.

Alzrius · Apr 27, 2014

Umbran said:
I will quote delerico, just above:

"The thing is that they had to do something different - they'd done "superweapon of the week" to death by that point, and had tried "evil Force user" in several different variations as well."

So, the old canon was a barrier, and led them to some things that are widely regarded as poor decisions as to what stories to tell, and collectively that canon does severely limit what stories they can tell, because some 5000 years and more of history has already been stipulated. A clean slate helps with those restrictions.

If you need help with those kinds of "restrictions," then you're not the right person to be telling those stories in the first place. Simply put, there are many things that are widely regarded as wise decisions regarding what stories to tell, and it's far and away better to build on them rather than throw your hands in the air because you lack the imagination to figure out how to incorporate them into new materials.

Canon is a strength, not a weakness. The people who think otherwise are the wrong sorts of people for the kind of writing required for an existing intellectual property.

Seems to be your week for disappointment. First Disney says they won't be bound by the EU continuity, then moderators turn out to be humans, rather than logic-driven machines or Vulcans or something.

Hm, so a moderator thinks that not being rude to other posters means being a machine or a Vulcan. In that case, yeah, I'd definitely call you a disappointment.

I happen to be a fan of Aruthurian myths. I was reading a work by Peter David recently, in which he has the entire story as a parable on US politics. Arthur was cast as dim-witted, weak-willed, but altogether personally pleasant person. This was not organic "retold over time", but was instead a drastic departure from the centuries-old tradition.

Did that also come with a blanket statement that all of the old Arthurian myths were now no longer valid, and that that story was now to be taken as the canon myth? No? Then, as the young people say, "irrelevant analogy is irrelevant."

Mythology gets bent to the times, always has, always will. They recast Spock. They tossed out the EU. Things change.

But they don't always change for the better. People make stupid decisions - this is one of them.

delericho · Apr 27, 2014

Umbran said:
I will quote delerico, just above:

"The thing is that they had to do something different - they'd done "superweapon of the week" to death by that point, and had tried "evil Force user" in several different variations as well."

So, the old canon was a barrier, and led them to some things that are widely regarded as poor decisions as to what stories to tell, and collectively that canon does severely limit what stories they can tell, because some 5000 years and more of history has already been stipulated. A clean slate helps with those restrictions.

To an extent. Bear in mind the "superweapon of the week" and "evil Force user" have still been done to death. Those stories may not be canon any more, but they're still in the memories of people who've read the books.

But what this gains them is that they don't need to worry about contradicting "EU novel #253" (or, worse, some fan's obsessive not-quite-right memory of the novel). Which is itself a boon, since their field of possible script-writers isn't limited to EU obsessives.

darjr said:
What does this mean to the RPG? How much of it is now no longer Cannon because it came from the EU? That would be weird.

For existing material, absolutely nothing - no more than the latest Drizzt novel retroactively changes all the existing FR games out there - a group can choose to adopt the changes or not, of course.

What it does mean is that future SW RPG materials will incorporate the new canon and not the old. Which shouldn't really be a surprise.

sabrinathecat · Apr 27, 2014

Sorry, MarkB, but your analogy doesn't hold
The New Doctor Who came with a built-in reason for being able to contradict the previous stories. In fact, Doctor Who (original) came with a built-in mechanic: parallel universes. In one universe, Mars spawned the Ice Warriors. In another the Osirans. In another, the Fehndal. And bouncing between parallel universes was so easy that they never had to even mention it.
Where NuWho fell is that be making season-arcs, they anchored themselves in One universe, and when they contradicted themselves, they made a glaring discontinuity.

Big Finish and NuWho have had massive cross-pollination since the show began, including script and story ideas, writers, producers, and script editors.

Also, one of the delusions behind the 1996 Fox movie was that it would be a pilot for a new show/series reboot. Yet another way in which it utterly failed.

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As for the RPG and how it will be affected: same as any RPG: use the rules you want, dismiss the ones you don't.

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On another level, and yes, this is the pot calling the kettle black, can we please keep this civil and not devolve into personal attacks like bickering, squabbling children or CNN politicians?

darjr · Apr 27, 2014

but what happens when setting content informed rules contradicts the new supplements and setting details? I'm not talking about home games, what does ffg do when they have to contradict what they've already published or hon non canon? can they?

Water Bob · Apr 27, 2014

darjr said:
but what happens when setting content informed rules contradicts the new supplements and setting details? I'm not talking about home games, what does ffg do when they have to contradict what they've already published or hon non canon? can they?

From what I understand, only the EU set after RotJ is being scrapped. And, FFG has wisely kept their game set before that time.

MarkB · Apr 27, 2014

sabrinathecat said:
Sorry, MarkB, but your analogy doesn't hold
The New Doctor Who came with a built-in reason for being able to contradict the previous stories. In fact, Doctor Who (original) came with a built-in mechanic: parallel universes. In one universe, Mars spawned the Ice Warriors. In another the Osirans. In another, the Fehndal. And bouncing between parallel universes was so easy that they never had to even mention it.

This sounds like a bit of Fanon you've made up in your own head to reconcile the show's inconsistencies. It's certainly not anything I've heard of being referenced officially. In fact, in-show, it was firmly established in both the original and the new series that travel between parallel universes was practically impossible.

And you're proceeding from a false premise - that, in order for these continuities to all be 'valid', there must be some in-fictional-universe way to link them all together. That's simply not necessary. All of these continuities are entirely fictional, so there's no need to establish one of them as 'true' and declare all others as 'false' unless they can somehow be tied into the 'true' canon.

There is no One Truth - it's all fiction.

delericho · Apr 27, 2014

MarkB said:
When the new 2005 series began, it was far from clear that they weren't doing exactly that. It was some time before it became fully established that the new series intended to respect the old series continuity. That didn't stop it from being a huge success almost from the outset.

As I understand it, RTD was basically allowed to use as much, or as little, of the old lore as he wanted for the new series - he could have ditched everything but The Doctor, the exterior design of the TARDIS, and the Daleks if he had wanted to. Fortunately, he decided to keep some stuff in, though he certainly didn't feel beholden to everything (and rightly so).

Steven Moffat is much more of an old-series fanboi than RTD, though, so since he's taken over there has been a marked up-tick in the amount of old continuity that the show leans on. This is a mixed blessing - on one hand, the show has a 50-year history to draw from, and there's a lot of good stuff there; on the other hand, in those 50 years there's also a lot of dross.

Pretty much exactly like the SW EU, really.