I watched the whole thing

I think the godfather, the first one at least, is very rooted in the myth of the war in heaven. It is pretty heavy handed actually. The godfather is God. Michael is the archangel Michael, the Turk is leading the rebellion of angels. That stuff is even more apparent in novel. I think one of the more everyday reasons it resonates though is because it is largely a story of identity. Michaels conflict is about identity.



in terms of who you identify with I think Michael is the character you are meant to identify with. Some people have a hard time with anti heroes. If so the godfather or goodfellas are not for you. Personally I found Vito, Michael and Sonny very compelling characters and identified with different aspects of each.

Bedrockgames said:

Kay is Michael's attempt to assimilate. this is a movie about italian immigrants and at the start of the movie Michael is not like the rest of his family, he is trying to be a regular American, that is why he joined the army and that is why he brought white protestant Kay to the wedding. Kay is furnishing in a way, just like his uniform is furnishing. The scene where he connects back with her, is one where he is expressing interest in turning his father's enterprise into a legitimate business. But all that aside, she is pretty and they used to date. He wants to start a family. After losing Apollonia he isn't interested in finding love. He is interested in finding a wife to raise his kids.

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That makes even less sense. So this guy gets his wife blown up in a car, and he decides that he should come back to the U.S. to start having kids? While his family is being killed off? That's just bad writing. No, not bad, horrendous. How does that make any sense?

He is an antihero. Over the course of the movie he grows more and more evil. The cop he killed was crooked, and Sollozzo was behind Michael's father being shot. This was a mob war and he was doing what had to be done for his family to survive.

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If he was meant to be an anti-hero, his story was written badly. What makes him a hero or good to begin with? Because he was in the army? That's just poor character development. I have no reason to believe that he isn't like the other people in his family.

Then there is the fact that everyone he kills is a bad guy. There is no moral dilemma for him. Everyone that he kills is bad. Everyone that dies is bad, and they deserve to die.

Not good deeds, but far from the evil he sinks to in part II where (spoilers) he kills his own brother.

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It's unfortunate he didn't kill everyone, including himself, and spared the world a third movie.

It is pretty obvious to me much of his descent is cemented by the death of Apollonia (her name is a pretty big hint).

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Really? She seemed like a minor character. She had a few scenes that lasted maybe two minutes, and she barely had any lines. Her only significant scenes were her showing her boobs, and her getting blown up. Other than that, she doesn't really do anything. Why does he fall in love with her? Because she had a pretty face? What made her the love of his life? She doesn't do anything besides die. That's a lame character. The scenes with her felt like filler. They needed to drag the movie longer, so they threw in some girl, had her flash her boobs, then blew her up in a car. That was it.

It seemed pretty clear to me.

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Well, it wasn't. How long is it from the time that Apollonia dies and he gets to the U.S.? When he is talking to the blonde girl, he tells her he has been back a year before he contacted her. What was he doing for an entire year? The family has been at war with these other families for all that time and Pacino's character couldn't be shown doing something? Terrible writing.

I would have to watch it again to address that point, since i don't recall the details of them saying that. But i think the point is the conflict just keeps escalating beyond what anyone wants it to be. When they say all out war, I think they are talking about going to the mattresses, and pretty sure by the time Sonny gets killed they are pretty deep in that.

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It's mentioned all the way until the end. They keep crying about how the other families don't want there to be all out war. Then they go ahead and kill some more people in public.

Bedrockgames said:

You both make reasonable points for why you don't like the film. But all you are convincing me of is that you don't like The Godfather, not that the Godfather is a bad movie.

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I think you're under the mistaken impression that I am trying to convince you of something.

Homicidal_Squirrel said:

That makes even less sense. So this guy gets his wife blown up in a car, and he decides that he should come back to the U.S. to start having kids? While his family is being killed off? That's just bad writing. No, not bad, horrendous. How does that make any sense?
If he was meant to be an anti-hero, his story was written badly. What makes him a hero or good to begin with? Because he was in the army? That's just poor character development. I have no reason to believe that he isn't like the other people in his family.

Then there is the fact that everyone he kills is a bad guy. There is no moral dilemma for him. Everyone that he kills is bad. Everyone that dies is bad, and they deserve to die.

It's unfortunate he didn't kill everyone, including himself, and spared the world a third movie.
Really? She seemed like a minor character. She had a few scenes that lasted maybe two minutes, and she barely had any lines. Her only significant scenes were her showing her boobs, and her getting blown up. Other than that, she doesn't really do anything. Why does he fall in love with her? Because she had a pretty face? What made her the love of his life? She doesn't do anything besides die. That's a lame character. The scenes with her felt like filler. They needed to drag the movie longer, so they threw in some girl, had her flash her boobs, then blew her up in a car. That was it.

Well, it wasn't. How long is it from the time that Apollonia dies and he gets to the U.S.? When he is talking to the blonde girl, he tells her he has been back a year before he contacted her. What was he doing for an entire year? The family has been at war with these other families for all that time and Pacino's character couldn't be shown doing something? Terrible writing.
It's mentioned all the way until the end. They keep crying about how the other families don't want there to be all out war. Then they go ahead and kill some more people in public.

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Sounds like nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking frankly.

The whole movies occurs over a five year period.

Homicidal_Squirrel said:

I think you're under the mistaken impression that I am trying to convince you of something.

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You're right. I forgot who I was communicating with for a moment.

Homicidal_Squirrel said:

That makes even less sense. So this guy gets his wife blown up in a car, and he decides that he should come back to the U.S. to start having kids? While his family is being killed off? That's just bad writing. No, not bad, horrendous. How does that make any sense?
If he was meant to be an anti-hero, his story was written badly. What makes him a hero or good to begin with? Because he was in the army? That's just poor character development. I have no reason to believe that he isn't like the other people in his family..

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He doesn't get his wife killed, he is betrayed by one of his guards and someone else has her killed. He decides to come back to the US because his only reason for being in Sicily is that he is in hiding. His father negotiates with the five families and makes it safe for him to return, then takes him under his wing as the heir to the family business. I think it makes complete sense that as part of that transition he would want to take a wife and have kids. I do not understand why this is so baffling to you.

he is an anti-hero because he starts our as spmeone who rejects his family's crimiinal lifestyle and by the end he becomes the leader of a criminal empire. In the second movie he even goes to the point of having his brother killed. He basically saves the family in the first film. I do not at all see poor character development here.

Homicidal_Squirrel said:

Well, it wasn't. How long is it from the time that Apollonia dies and he gets to the U.S.? When he is talking to the blonde girl, he tells her he has been back a year before he contacted her. What was he doing for an entire year? The family has been at war with these other families for all that time and Pacino's character couldn't be shown doing something? Terrible writing.

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Then i think you were not doing a good job of paying attention. Havent seen it in a while, so not sure of the precise timeline, but it is very clear to the viewer this occurs over a period of time.

the year he spent before contacting her he has been learning the family business. The fact that he waits a full year before contacting also goes against your point that he jumps right back in with Kay after Apollonia dies.

Homicidal_Squirrel said:

It's unfortunate he didn't kill everyone, including himself, and spared the world a third movie.
Really? She seemed like a minor character. She had a few scenes that lasted maybe two minutes, and she barely had any lines. Her only significant scenes were her showing her boobs, and her getting blown up. Other than that, she doesn't really do anything. Why does he fall in love with her? Because she had a pretty face? What made her the love of his life? She doesn't do anything besides die. That's a lame character. The scenes with her felt like filler. They needed to drag the movie longer, so they threw in some girl, had her flash her boobs, then blew her up in a car. That was it.

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again, i think it is pretty obvious from this sequence if the film that he falls deeply in love with Apollonia. It certainly wasnt put in as filler, as it was also a crucial portion of the book. But they did handle it efficiently. Personally, i think that was the righht call as it would have seriously dragged down the pace of the movie to get too deep into the Apollonia plot. The important elements are there and obvious to theviewwer. I am sorry but your explanation for why this was put in is just completely wrong.

sabrinathecat said:

I who can't access the mythology of Star Wars.
Mythic: Godfather? Well... you are the first and only person I've ever heard mention this. (not that you can't be right, but does seem strange). And is it universally accepted? Or broadly accepted? I have no idea. However, I had no sense of mythic journey while watching the movie. I have doubts. Don't know how broad a net has to be cast for the movie to seem Mythic.
Smarta$$ comment: that The Godfather is a good movie seems to be a popular myth.

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i am not much of a film or literary critic, so not sure. But I do know i encountered the mention of myth several times. In the introduction to a version of the book, the foreward mentions the connections to the war in heaven. I think i have also seen references to greek and roman myth (with the godfather as Zeus and Luca brasi as a titan, things like that). For me the war in heaven rings true. But i think it is a relatively minir thing. Personally the aspects of the movie that resonate with me are the importance of family, honor, the nature of identity, etc. I like mafia films though.

Bedrockgames said:

The whole movies occurs over a five year period.

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Really? Five years? That definitely doesn't come through in the movie. I thought it was somewhere between one and three years. The movie doesn't give you the feeling it takes five years.