Saints --> Demigods

RolandOfGilead · Jan 2, 2003

ok, does anyone else think that a few of the greyhawk gods could be given lesser dieties associated with them ... former heroes of the faith chosen to ascend to sainthood (which
is equivalent to demigodhood)... the reason I say saints are demigods is because they receive prayers, are attributed miracles, are asked to intercede into the chieftan diety, etc etc.
wouldnt it be kind of neat if you could worship a saint who had a different martial weapon than your chief diety? In essence - You'd still worship the chief diety (he grants the spells).. but your patron is a demigod.. so you could choose his domains or something.. hehe. anyone have any neat ideas along this line?

Maldur · Jan 2, 2003

maybe swap one domain, and (slightly) different weapon of choice), dogma changes. Very open to abuse. But when DM and player both agree, why not?

Alzrius · Jan 2, 2003

Roland, I think that that's actually a really cool idea.

To some degree, there have been shades of this already.

A previous issue of the Living Greyhawk Journal listed all of the Hero Gods of Greyhawk, and their domains, alignment, and favored weapon (ironically, Hero Gods are rank 0 gods, who were later said to have no ability to grant spells anyway).

In Dragon 298 under the "Tests of Lolth" article, it mentions that the last test involves facing a very high-level proxy of Lolth. The proxy is actually a rank 1 god (a demi-god). It mentions that that demi-god (of which Lolth has several) doesn't grant spells, iirc, but deals with things on Lolth's behalf. On that note, its interesting that they aren't granting spells on Lolth's behalf now during her silence.

I would think of a saint as probably being divine rank 0, which means that they can't grant spells or domains. If they were a rank 1 demi-god, they could grant all those things though, and I would say that those who worship that saint's aspect of the religion would indeed draw spells from him, since it would save the head deity power.

I'm A Banana · Jan 2, 2003

Saints probably shouldn't be demigods.

Demigods are demigods.

Mostly this is because if a saint is a demigod, why call it a saint? It's a god, then. Perhaps a lesser one in the pantheon, but a god all the same.

Things that approach godhood but aren't quite there (like, say, the child of a god and a mortal, or an especially blessed mortal, like a saint, or a high-ranking mad cultist, or demon lord or archangel or whatever) should probably be rank 0 deities...not technically gods, but gaining a good chunk of their powers.

Sadly, not the powers to grant spells. But this is how the saint serves as an intermediary -- he can revieve prayers from mortals, and serve on a deity's behalf. He has many powers of mobility, sensing, and teleportation (in addition to his most-likely epic-level stats), and so can easily respond to a plea for help.

But he is not a true god, and does not grant spells.

I have a house rule in effect that allows rank 0 deities to grant spells if a sacrifice is made in their name (basically treating them like a god), but that really isn't applicable for saits who are, after all, merely mortals who have the ear of the god, so to speak. Saints are prayed to, and asked for aid, but even their powers come ultimately from a higher source.

I'd allow people to devote themselves to saints, but they would also have to devote themselves to whatever god the saint was a saint *of*. The saint could impose some extra restrictions in exchange for something minor (say, a broadening domain selection, or a different favored weapon or class or whatever), but the saint wouldn't go against the edicts of the god...

That's mostly IMHO, though. Truth be told, this area's grey enough to have many decent interpretations.

arwink · Jan 2, 2003

I use a lot of minor godlings in my games to lend diversity to a static, unchanging pantheon. Very often, these are saints and hero's of the major deities that have found a place in the outer planes, and for arguements sake can be considered demi-gods.

They occupy the same space as elemental princes, demon and devil lords, etc. On their own, they cannot grant divine power, but they have are able to divert limited amounts of thei patron's powers. Hence, they often have small churches devoted to them, usually no more than one or two.

KDLadage · Jan 2, 2003

I'll just take this opportunity to invite you all over to look at the UMBRAIGA Volume IV (in the HOSTED SITES forums, UMBRAIGA) work that is being done.

Saints, in this work, take on a stance similar to that of minor gods, without being Gods. They are not, in and of themselves, worshiped; they serve and provide a "chain-of-command" (so-to-speak) for the religion. Much as the Saints of modern religions do.

Check it out. I think you might like it.

The Serge · Jan 2, 2003

If you're using Deities and Demigods to build your pantheon and as a part of your cosmology, then make Saints divine rank 0. Make them quasi-deities rather than demi-gods. This way, they are divine but cannot grant spells, will not have access to salient divine abilities, and will not have all the immunities possessed by truly divine beings.

Davelozzi · Jan 2, 2003

IMC, one of the main cultures has a semi-monotheistic religion with the saints serving as demi-gods. Essentially, the main god provides the general cleric spells and the saint provides the domain spells. Your choice of patron saint is a choice of what angle you want to approach the main gods teachings from.

Evil folks worship demons & devils.

I don't bother with divine ranks or any of the other rules from Dieties & Demigods as they're unnecessary for me at this time.

The Serge · Jan 2, 2003

Davelozzi said:
IMC, one of the main cultures has a semi-monotheistic religion with the saints serving as demi-gods. Essentially, the main god provides the general cleric spells and the saint provides the domain spells. Your choice of patron saint is a choice of what angle you want to approach the main gods teachings from.

Evil folks worship demons & devils.

I don't bother with divine ranks or any of the other rules from Dieties & Demigods as they're unnecessary for me at this time.

I like this idea for the type of campaign you're running.

Outside of saints, are their intercessors like Angels? If so, are they also the ones that provide Domain access?

Dareoon Dalandrove · Jan 3, 2003

I have never given any thought to what a saint would be in DnD before. I think that Arwinks idea that they occupy the same nitch as elemental and demon princes is good. Saints and other beings with divine rank 0 are the ones out there answering comune spells and doing stuff like that.