D&D 5E My D&D 5E Starter Set Quest and Campaign


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Nemio

First Post
Indeed, it is possible.

And the Nothic does seem to prefer that course of action. However, the party (without cloaks or disguise) are clearly intruders, had blood on their weapons, one had just fallen down the crevasse and was severely wounded and had thoughts of taking over the complex for his own (Nothic gained that info), and while three were back helping the Noble out of the crevasse, the unarmored one (Wizard) was wandering over in easy striking distance (with surprise and Advantage) with only the little one (Halfling) supporting him.

I rolled a die and determined the Nothic would use the upper hand to try to take one or two down, perhaps using that and the injuries of the Noble to extort payment from a position of strength. Nothics are evil, after all.

Some nice roleplaying on your part :)
One thing that I would find hard as a new DM is that the players might just think it's a mindless monster and not understand the whole clever thought process behind the attack. But that's something I have to learn I guess.
 

pedro2112

First Post
Mark,

I noted that you gave the PCs advantage when attacking from a higher ground. I assumed from all the "math" people, that giving out advantage for those minor situations was a no-no. Did you feel it was overpowered? In other words, giving out a +4 to +5 advantage when in past editions higher ground only gave a +2, especially with 5Es bounded accuracy?
 

Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
Mark,

I noted that you gave the PCs advantage when attacking from a higher ground. I assumed from all the "math" people, that giving out advantage for those minor situations was a no-no. Did you feel it was overpowered? In other words, giving out a +4 to +5 advantage when in past editions higher ground only gave a +2, especially with 5Es bounded accuracy?


That's a good question. I guess if I had to lean in one direction or the other at this stage I'd say I am not sure +2 was ever a fair enough bonus for having higher ground in some situations. Tactically, it really is a great advantage to have the higher ground and also a great disadvantage to fight from a lower position. Now, in how I ran it, I gave the PCs the Advantage dice but I didn't give the bad guys Disadvantage, so perhaps that was splitting the difference on my part. Maybe, by RAW (which *is* technically what I am trying to use to really understand the new rules), I should have been doing both. Thoughts?
 

Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
Some nice roleplaying on your part :)
One thing that I would find hard as a new DM is that the players might just think it's a mindless monster and not understand the whole clever thought process behind the attack. But that's something I have to learn I guess.


I did give the players some info, the Wizard in particular, when he came face to face with the creature as he rounded the pillar, some info on Nothics and how they are aberrant Wizards. I figured I didn't even need an Arcane or History check for him to have heard some horror stories (maybe from Masters/teachers) of how some Wizards screwed around or messed up and wound up becoming such creatures. Sort of boogie man stuff. That info did seem to put the fear into the Wizard who promptly disengaged and remained at the far side of the cavern the rest of the combat. :D
 

pedro2112

First Post
That's a good question. I guess if I had to lean in one direction or the other at this stage I'd say I am not sure +2 was ever a fair enough bonus for having higher ground in some situations. Tactically, it really is a great advantage to have the higher ground and also a great disadvantage to fight from a lower position. Now, in how I ran it, I gave the PCs the Advantage dice but I didn't give the bad guys Disadvantage, so perhaps that was splitting the difference on my part. Maybe, by RAW (which *is* technically what I am trying to use to really understand the new rules), I should have been doing both. Thoughts?

I don't have enough personal experience with hand to hand combat with weapons to know whether the 10% (+2) bonus for attacking from higher ground does not accurately reflect that benefit. If you do (or have read credible information that it does), then I would agree with your solution.
 

Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
I don't have enough personal experience with hand to hand combat with weapons to know whether the 10% (+2) bonus for attacking from higher ground does not accurately reflect that benefit. If you do (or have read credible information that it does), then I would agree with your solution.


Leaving aside the idea that personal experience might be a necessity for emulating something in a game, since clearly we'd have far fewer games if that were the case, I think we can safely both agree that "higher ground" does give some sort of advantage (small "a"). Once we pass that hurdle, then using one suggested bonus as a standard, whether established or not, seems an odd rubric. So, we're really just discussing a slight difference of opinion on how deadly we might want one portion of our game or another.

But think of it this way, if someone is far enough above someone else during combat, they are swinging weapons downward, the opposite being the case for the person below. The person above is swinging a higher percentage of the time at someone's head (leaving aside some types of monster opponents). Again, the opposite true for the person below. In your opinion, should there be a +2 for high ground *and* a -2 for low ground? Would it be more exciting for game play, for the players, to slide the full +4 (4-5 , as you mention) over to one side?

I'm comfortable with that being the Basic mechanic. That is to say, it's a decent simple math way of dealing with what, we both already agree, is an advantage . . . in the rules of the Basic game before we get into more advanced combat modules/options. I would not be in favor of the Basic rules having more granulated rules when it is already planned to design the advanced version with such in place. I like that a GM, in most cases, can simple assign Advantage/Disadvantage and be done with it. I like that it puts that mechanic in the hands of the players, quite often, for the sake of resolution.

Now, something I am looking at in the rules, as our group plays through them, is whether I would even want a more granulated set of combat rules. I've been wargaming 40+ years, a bit longer than D&D has been around, and all along side my RPGing history. I think it is fun to have combat mechanics in RPGs but if I want rules that focus on combat, generally speaking, I don't play an RPG, I play a wargame, a minis game, or the like. So, please understand, when a conversation comes up about one small aspect or another of the combat rules in an RPG, my first reaction is wondering if it can be removed entirely rather than to tweak it for the sake of "realism." The Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic goes a long way, IMO, toward slimming the rules for combat in an RPG and that's a big plus, IMO.
 
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pedro2112

First Post
Mark,

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I didn't meant to imply that one needs to have combat experience (that's why I added the caveat "read credible info about that") in order to know for sure. I was just looking at how the designers gave advantage in the game. It seem as if they don't when it is a minor bonus (none for charging, flanking, etc..) and only award it when it is a major factor (the attacker is unseen, the defender is unconscious), or when a PC gives up an action in order to make it happen. That is why I was curious if attacking from a few feet above a defender was such a significant advantage it is worth the massive (at least 20%) benefit. To my untrained eye, I'd characterize it along the same lines as flanking and not give advantage. Of course, as the DM, I would definitely give advantage if the "higher ground" scenario was clearly more advantageous than just being on a table next to the enemy.
 

Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
Mark,

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I didn't meant to imply that one needs to have combat experience (that's why I added the caveat "read credible info about that") in order to know for sure. I was just looking at how the designers gave advantage in the game. It seem as if they don't when it is a minor bonus (none for charging, flanking, etc..) and only award it when it is a major factor (the attacker is unseen, the defender is unconscious), or when a PC gives up an action in order to make it happen. That is why I was curious if attacking from a few feet above a defender was such a significant advantage it is worth the massive (at least 20%) benefit. To my untrained eye, I'd characterize it along the same lines as flanking and not give advantage. Of course, as the DM, I would definitely give advantage if the "higher ground" scenario was clearly more advantageous than just being on a table next to the enemy.



In this case, they were any where from 4 to 6 feet above, wielding weapons that were as long or longer than the defenders (though of the same 5' reach in game terms), and the ruffians had already been publicly shamed by the adventurers, losing one of their numbers in the process. The ruffians had a short rest cooling their heels in a cell but provided some care by a Townmaster who fears their leader's reprisals. So, too, the ruffians at that point had yet to explain to their superior(s) what took place in town having just arrived back at the hideout after the Townmaster staged their escape to look like a breakout.

The adventurers were hot on their tail and they barely had time to barricade the entrance from the manor above. One was hiding just below the steps by the entrance, another among some barrels/supplies, both ready for ambush. Two were were in the storage room/barracks drawing lots to see who had to tell the boss what happened in town and thus didn't hear the PCs push through the makeshift barricade.

The one in hiding by the stairs was perceived by the PCs who, to their credit, kept the high ground rather than coming down to meet the ruffians who were called back in on equal footing. As the two on the right were cut down, the two on the left trying to fight their way up the stairs were slaughtered in the following turn by the Noble Fighter's melee prowess, the Wizard's and Folk Hero's missile fire, and the Halfling and Dwarf who cut off any chance of retreat by coming down form the right and surrounding the remaining two.

It was a swift, three-round combat. The PCs had really beaten these same ruffians in town when challenged earlier but let them live. It would have been a shame if the ruffians had managed to take any of the PCs or even all of them out.

Now, here's a question. Would anyone here have given the party the experience again for taking on the same guys a second time?
 
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