How would you let this play out?

Im running Fall of Illefarn, the third adventure in Ghosts of Dragonspear Castle. (WARNING SPOLIERS!!!). In light of the new players quitting thread and the OP of that thread saying he will not run mosters "stupidly", I'm wondering how other DMs would handle this situation. (No I'm not inferring the OP would send the whole dungeon at the party)

In the first session Thord lead the party to the secret entrance to level two. After some (very amusing) interaction with Thords dworc teenage son the party decided they wanted to find Skannon, the imprisoned Thayan to learn why the other Red Wizards locked her up. Grit just wanted them to stop annoying him so he gave them rough directions. Along the way the party encountered Ulan, another Red Wizard. They were playing smart and took him by surprise and killed him in the surprise round. So he didn't get a chance to activate his animated suits of armor. What the party didn't notice was the invisible imp who wisely fled to inform Ulan's twin Luuthgar about what happened.

So...my question is what would you have Luuthgar do? He has at his immediate disposal the imp and two willowisps. He can summon a fire elemental for 1 hour. If he can get to them he could activate the 9 suits of animated armor.

What he believes to be his master, Arvik, (really a raksasha named Nadir disguised as Arvik) is nearby along with 6 wights and 6 wraiths. They are all on the third level (PCs are on the 2nd..which is occupied by dwarves and dworc children...mostly noncombatants).

The 1st level houses a tribe of orcs that is currently unaware of the party lead by an ettin named Harglevargle. He has at his disposal 20 orcs, 18 half orcs, 1 shaman, 6 orogs and 1 ogre.

So what does Luuthgar do? If I was playing this "smart" he'd send the imp to mobilize the orcs and he would alert Arvik. Within 10 minutes the party (5 7th level PCs and an elf prince and two elf warriors) would be mobbed by more than 60 monsters! That might be fun but likely wont end well.

I have my ideas but I'd like to see how others would play this. I think Luuthgar probably does not trust Arvik at this point and is most likely to be cautious and calculated. Other than survival he most wants to please Szass Tam (the leader of the Red Wizards).

Evil overlords never send EVERYONE until it's too late. They always underestimate the party, and never cry to the boss for help because that gets them replaced.

Why does the overlord have all those forces? Do they get along so well they could all be sent after the same thing? Is there some other threat each is watching over, or do they all balance each other out so no one can gain the upper hand to oust the overlord.

If the Big Boss send EVERYONE (see The Professional), does he leave himself undefended? Can the party sneak around? Do these combined forces start fighting each other? Do they leave the backdoor unguarded for someone else to jump in and provide a new distraction?

So many ways to go; none of which are the combined forces of evil place nice together and descend upon the PCs and pound them into dust. Or maybe they do, and the new group of PCs shows up amidst the chaos to win the day.

Imp runs into the back. "A bunch of guys just busted in! What do we do?"

"Take these {insert level appropriate encounter here} and go back to make sure they're dead. The rest of you, form a tiered defense to protect the area. This may be a scouting party for a larger invasion attempt and I will not take any chances. Do not over-extend yourselves!"

Alternative, "No, stay here. These people killed my brother. They're mine!"

It's Personal for him, so he'd only use tools he had direct control over or else it would cheapen his revenge.

buda said:

Evil overlords never send EVERYONE until...

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...it suits him. I agree. I served in the army for 9 years. You never play your whole hand for the reasons you mentioned. It's like playing poker and revealing your highest bet and entire hand after your opponents' first bet...

So some more info:

We have four factions...

Orcs: Led by Harglevargle (ettin). His main motivation is keep control of his tribe, maintain supremacy over the dwarf slaves and keep the Thayans happy and out of his hair. I don't think he'd be dumb enough to accept a pyrrhic victory unless his only other choice is annihilation.

Dwarves: Mostly noncombatants interested in survival. They may be inclined to help the party with information or as distractions. Their king is senile and holds the only means to the Thayans completing their mission. He just doesn't remember (the PCs have the means to jog his memory but they dont know it...so in some ways the Thayans need the PCs)

Thayans: Luuthgar and Skannon are the only two out of five Red Wizards remaining. They are after the fourth of four elemental keys which is locked in an altar on the orcs' level of the dungeon. Their leader is Arvik but he is not what he seems and Skannon is imprisoned because she is suspicious of him. Luuthgar's twin was slain by the party but the twins are able to use the other's body as a phylactery like a lich so Luuthgar wants to be sure to survive to "rebirth" his brother in 1-10 days.

Arvik/Nadir: the leader of the Thayans...except that he died weeks ago. A raksasha named Nadir has replaced him. He wants the Thayans to succeed but he also wants at least some of the PCs to survive because they are instrumental in his plans to destry the soul of an NPC.

Only Luuthgar and his imp (and a couple dwarves) currently know of the presence of the party.

Would the orcs and the raksasha want to help? Is everyone on the same side or is one group hoping to get rid of the others and claim the entire dungeon?

Since the raksasha wants the red wizards to succeed and the PCs to survive, he'd send his own minions to take the PCs alive. Or tell the remaining wizards to fall back and hide, so they can ambush the PCs from behind when they come up.
The orcs would pretend to help and ready to mobilize, but they really want to see who wins so they're "delayed", hoping to attack both sides in mid-fight so they can claim the entire keep again.

Jester Canuck said:

Would the orcs and the raksasha want to help? Is everyone on the same side or is one group hoping to get rid of the others and claim the entire dungeon?

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I think factions switching sides/betraying each other are very real possibilities. That's what struck me as odd about the statement by a DM that he doesn't play monsters "stupidly" to avoid killing PCs. I'm sure he meant something different, but if a new DM is in the mindset of "this is a game and you play games to _win_" it might mean to him or her to play the monsters to win like you are playing a game of Dungeon Command rather than playing them simply as part of a setting where everyone has their own interests and motivations...to each group and even individual "winning/losing" is a gray scale with different things at each end. (well, everyone has death at the losing end...at least most everyone) and might not even be linear. So yes...not everyone is on a fixed side and if the players play their cards right they can use that.

Since the raksasha wants the red wizards to succeed and the PCs to survive, he'd send his own minions to take the PCs alive. Or tell the remaining wizards to fall back and hide, so they can ambush the PCs from behind when they come up.

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Yeah...I think so. The way the adventure instructs you to play him is to use his assets in waves to wear down the PCs without revealing himself and to even allow the PCs some success if they are working to secure the elemental key. I think once he learns the PCs are in the dungeon he'll start spying on them but only act against them when it truly suits him.

The orcs would pretend to help and ready to mobilize, but they really want to see who wins so they're "delayed", hoping to attack both sides in mid-fight so they can claim the entire keep again.

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Probably. The Thayans have benefited the orcs somewhat by using magic to keep their lair from collapsing. But at some point I think they'd wear out their welcome.

I think as long as the PCs stay off level 1 the orcs would see them as not a dire threat. If they become aware of them they might be inclined to go on a sort of alert status and maybe kick out some recon teams to test the strength of the PCs...if they think they can smash the rotten elf, dwarf and human intruders easily they will. If not, they probably would be inclined to let the wizards handle it and just defend their immediate turf.

I forgot the PCs motivation...they're a faction too. I suppose. The PCs encountered Arvik back in Baldur's Gate nearly a year ago when they were only 2nd level. He had helped the Guild with some work in exchange for information he needed and the PCs were working for the Flaming Fist. He nearly took out the entire party with a fireball when their paths crossed. The only PC that didn't go down was the barbarian who had split from the party to chase down some street thugs. When he came back the entire party was down and in a burning building. Arvik was already bloodied and low on spells so when he saw the barbarian charging around the corner he ran out the nearest exit then covered it with a web spell. The barbarian had to decide between trying to chase him or pull a few party members out before they burned to death. The ONLY thing that prevented anyone from dying was the bard (no longer part of the party) rolled a 20 on his death save and stabilized. I decided to play nice and allowed him to become conscious enough to cast a cure wounds spell on the fighter...that was enough to get everyone out safely.

So they've been chasing Arvik ever since. They saw him hanged by the authorities in Daggerford and turned their attention toward breaking up the rest of the Thayan operation. But now they are hearing rumors from other NPCs that he is actually still alive they are pissed (EDIT: they have no idea that he's a raksasha but they've encountered it before...it was disguised as a different NPC and attacked them until it got what it wanted...so they know not every NPC is necessarily what he or she seems).

So they don't seem to care much about the orcs, dwarves or elemental keys...they want to kill Red Wizards, especially Arvik. When the teenage Dworc told them the Thayans control the upper level they all said "we go there" until I managed to let them know at least one was in a prison cell. They're somewhat newish players...I am trying to teach them to use their heads and assess the situation...look for unconventional ways to approach things. Try to tackle the dungeon backwards if they can. All those guards and minion types will just get out of your way if you already have the powerful magic weapon and the BBEG's head...

I think Luuthgar's reaction for now will be to do nothing drastic. He'll use the imp and two willowisps to spy on the party. They'll be out of range for scrying directly through them (I'm treating the willowisps as familiars). So whatever they learn from Skannon, Luuthgar will also learn but it will be incomplete. He'll definitely want revenge on the party so he'll be looking for a chance to take it. If the party starts to become a threat to him he'll look for a way to take them out. But maybe they can make progress toward finding the way to unlocking the altar so he can take advantage of that.

The other factions I'll deal with as they become aware of the party.

buda said:

Why does the overlord have all those forces?

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It does sound like too much. That may be a flaw in the adventure.

Do they get along so well they could all be sent after the same thing? Is there some other threat each is watching over, or do they all balance each other out so no one can gain the upper hand to oust the overlord.

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An "evil" army realistically consists of several people armed with deadly weapons such as rifles and grenades, following the orders of officers you might not like or respect and are responsible for keeping you alive (and occasionally mess up), and yet shockingly fragging is pretty rare in real-life. Chaotic evil doesn't have to mean Chronic Backstabbing Disorders with extra doses of The StarScream. CE creatures can still recognize if someone would make a better leader, or is smarter, or is better at fighting, magic or other skills, etc.

I disagree with some of the tactics in the OP (sending everyone without leaving a reserve and bodyguards) but I disagree that chaotic evil creatures cannot work together.