PCs that are too big for their britches...do they live or die?

billd91 · Aug 11, 2014

I think the most intimidating villain we ever encountered used to gallop up and pepper us with arrows of slaying. First edition - no saving throw. Needless to say, we were intimidated. Hell, we were so intimidated that every time the DM said we heard galloping sounds approaching, we nearly panicked.
The one time we encountered him under peaceful circumstances, we did NOT mouth off.

Li Shenron · Aug 11, 2014

Oryan77 said:
So how do you handle this as a DM? Let it happen and shrug it off, letting the BBEG look like a complete tool in the process? If I were to roleplay the NPC appropriately, he'd just slaughter the disrespectful idiot and be done with it, turning to the other PCs and saying, "anything you want to add?" I just figure that doing so would eliminate part of the fun for the players since it seems to be an enjoyable pastime to belittle anything that a powerful BBEG would say. Still, it does make me feel like the bad guys are pushovers when I'm trying to make a scenario feel a bit scary in order to put the PCs on edge.

It depends on the BBEG, but instead of just having him/her react violently, how about plotting some "delayed blast" vengeance?

Maybe the PC goes back to his home/village and find it burned, or the party is abandoned with a trick on a island, or they get paid with cursed items.

A BBEG who has a social interaction with the PCs is often of the type of a corrupted evil individual who secured a position of power in society. He's often going to have the law at his side... make him have his vengeance in a way that the PC cannot solve by combat, e.g. make them falsely accused of a crime, or legally stripped of their possessions, or covered with shame and infamity thanks to a plot of clever lies and false evidence. When a whole kingdom hates them, they won't be able to fix this problem by killing something (which is what many characters are only good at).

Yora · Aug 11, 2014

He is the villain, the PCs are the heroes. The players know they will win and that the guy is weaker than them. Why would they have to fear him.

The only reason to be afraid would be, if they can not be sure they will be able to defeat him.

Herobizkit · Aug 11, 2014

One trick I used to keep players on their toes is to have the BBEG have access to powerful Illusion and Divination magics, then use said magic to constantly watch and hound the PCs.

For example, at low level, maybe they start hearing his disembodied voice. As he gains power, he starts manifesting an illusory body that travels with them on adventures and berates their efforts. Soon, that illusion covers the whole sky and he laughs and mocks them.

Though I used this shtick prior to the series being created, I now look back and see that BBEG as 'Q' From Star Trek: The Next Generation. All-powerful, can do all sorts of tricks and placing PC's in terrible situations... having the power to outright kill them but preferring to making them miserable.

Shiroiken · Aug 11, 2014

Two things.

1) At least the players are willing to listen to the monologue. I've known of groups that would insist on attacking while the villain was talking, totally ruining the tension. Just food for thought.

2) I had this happen a lot when I was in high school (and early college). Assuming this is an adult game, then you either have to teach them a lesson or accept it as part of the game.

If you want to teach them a lesson, it will probably involve a TPK. Put them in a situation where the villain isn't actually present (such as a projected image), so that they cannot attack him. He's so powerful that the PCs are beneath his notice, but is annoyed by their interference. Rather than waste talent, he offers for them to join him. If they refuse politely, they get to live. If they mock him (as expected), he shakes his head, mutters "fools" then opens a Gate to drop several high level demons on them, which then feast on their souls.

Reynard · Aug 11, 2014

My initial response is, "Make a bloody, horrible, screaming example of one of them," but then I am reminded of the scene in The Avengers when Tony Stark basically thumbs his nose at the GOD threatening him, so there is a place for this sort of thing. That said, if it clashes terribly with the tone of the game you are trying to create, you need to talk to your players. otherwise, action-comedy is a totally viable tone for D&D. Let them Whedon it up every now and again.

ExploderWizard · Aug 11, 2014

Oryan77 said:
In all the years I have DMed, I don't think I have ever had a BBEG successfully intimidate a PC. I don't mean via the intimidate skill. I just mean that, when a powerful NPC confronts the party, none of them ever show the respect that he deserves. The PCs respond with smart aleck responses and general disrespect as if the evil being standing before them is nothing more than a homeless man asking for change.

It doesn't matter how I roleplay him or how I describe him, if he is a bad guy (even many levels higher than them), they will mouth off to him. Most of the time, it is done in an immature way to boot.

So how do you handle this as a DM? Let it happen and shrug it off, letting the BBEG look like a complete tool in the process? If I were to roleplay the NPC appropriately, he'd just slaughter the disrespectful idiot and be done with it, turning to the other PCs and saying, "anything you want to add?" I just figure that doing so would eliminate part of the fun for the players since it seems to be an enjoyable pastime to belittle anything that a powerful BBEG would say. Still, it does make me feel like the bad guys are pushovers when I'm trying to make a scenario feel a bit scary in order to put the PCs on edge.

It's not that I expect the PCs to cower in fear. Heck, most protagonists in movies do disrespect the bad guy during his monologue. But just once, I'd like to see the players biting their tongue. I just can't figure out how to do it.

Players do not have morale scores. The decision on how a character responds to various things in the game is completely up to the player unless they are being controlled by some magical force.

Let the players respond however they wish and have the NPC respond appropriately in character. If it is within the power of the NPC to snuff a rude PC and in character for the NPC to do it then let it happen.

One thing more than any other causes players to be extremely cocky- victory.

So long as the players always manage to come out on top, and win the day no matter how much smack they talk or even how stupidly they have played, then they will see victory as a given thing instead of something they need to play well to earn.

If the lesson actual play teaches them is that they will win any challenge before them no matter the odds this will be a regular occurrence.

Rod Staffwand · Aug 11, 2014

Man...I wouldn't play D&D if mouthing off to the BBEG meant certain death. Where the hell is the fun in that? We'll usually come up with silly nicknames or puns for them and give them no respect whatsoever. It's all part of the game.

When I DM, I take all of this into account when running the villain. If you know your players and their characters you can anticipate their actions and develop the BBEG's responses, either verbal or more physical. I've rarely felt the need to go to 'die' or 'save or die' responses.

Some BBEGs might hurl sneering insults back at the PCs. I had one that thought so little of the PCs he didn't even listen to what they had to say. They insulted him and he went right on with his monologue as if they weren't even there. When you just want to rebuke a single PC for getting uppity, I'll usually have the BBEG cripple, paralyze or otherwise prevent them from taking further action.

If violence IS called for, I'll usually have the BBEG turn the fighting over to subordinates or a champion of some sort. The BBEG has better things to do then to slaughter vermin--that's what minions are for. The BBEG leaves on pressing 'evil' business. Putting the PCs into a death trap is also good if you're into that sort of thing (and if you're not, you're one weird D&D player).

I'd only go with a direct attack if the BBEG is not the type to have minions (maybe a big anti-social dragon). In this case, it would be serve as a dramatic outro for the villain more than something designed to actually kill the PCs. The dragon might breathe on the group, but I'd give the party a round of warning allowing them to flee or dive for cover, thus reducing the damage. Or the dragon might just smash through a cavern wall, causing a collapse which the PCs then have to contend with. You're looking for impressive, but not instantly fatal.

Of course, all of this is predicated on my campaigns, where raise dead magic is not really a thing. In a game where PCs can come back from the dead, you might just want to kill them. Nothing motivates players better than sweet, sweet revenge.

Umbran · Aug 11, 2014

Yora said:
He is the villain, the PCs are the heroes. The players know they will win and that the guy is weaker than them. Why would they have to fear him.

The only reason to be afraid would be, if they can not be sure they will be able to defeat him.

That's half of it. In essence - showing respect is a *negotiation* tactic. Are the players interested in negotiation? Do they think they have anything to gain from negotiation?

If they think they can win, then they're already in the position of strength, and don't need to show respect. Also, if they think that negotiation is a waste of time, because the BBEG is only going to try to kill them in three minutes anyway, they won't bother showing respect.

Set it up so the win is uncertain, and being respectful is a way out of a deadly situation, then, maybe you'll get something.