D&D 5E Warlock/Cleric Best of all Worlds

Michael Morris said:

The "fluff" on both the classes makes it pretty clear that their magical abilities are outsourced. Combining the classes requires ignoring that background. Mechanically it will work, the game is written that way so the DM can freely change the fluff around. But the default assumptions of the game make it pretty clear that this particular combination isn't going to go very far at many tables.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but that seems like an extremely limited perspective on what backstories are "allowable". It doesn't mean ignoring the background, it means embracing it and shaping it into an interesting premise. And honestly, I find your comment about "jealous gods" to presuppose concepts about the nature of religion in the game that I do not share.

1) It's quite possible for a pact patron and a god to have their goals in alignment. The cleric/warlock in question might be a handpicked agent of the god's proxy. A cleric of Asmodeus / fiend pact warlock makes perfect sense to be aligned, as well as fey pact warlock / cleric of Corellon or any other god of the Seldarine.

2) Clerical power need not be granted with any particular strings attached. The remote dieties of Eberron don't particularly care what you do with divine magic, for example (and are PHB official).

3) Likewise, a warlock pact may not be a choice on the part of the PC. Perhaps a particular child is born into a family curse of a pact with a devil (I'm thinking of Moorcock's Von Bek family as an example), but turns to the church in order to maintain his hold on his very soul. The chain pact familiar could be a very literal "devil on his shoulder". The pact sword could represent the constant temptation to violence. Perhaps every time the character strays from the righteous path, he is granted more power to further his temptation (represented by gaining more warlock levels).

In general, backstory should be deployed to further the character's development and conflict, and provide new narrative hooks, and never to limit a player's choice of mechanical expression.

I've deleted a couple of posts which were commenting upon moderation, which we don't allow on ENworld.

In addition, if you think someone is posting at a tangent to the main purpose of the thread, don't feel that you have to tackle them - either just ignore the posts which are not germane to the subject or, if someone is being particularly irritating about it report it so that the moderators can check up and see whether actions needs taking.

It normally takes two to turn an opinion into an argument, and its great if we can live and let live.

Thanks

I appreciate the feedback!

On the topic of Warlock/Cleric RP conflict: my personal view (and this subject is personal, since the rules allow it) is that the relationship between a god and a god's mortal agent is better represented by the Warlock pact than the "wizard-in-all-but-name" portrayal of the cleric.

More specifically: why can't the "The Archfey" be Corellon Larethian? Or "The Fiend", Tiamat? You're not only a vanilla spellcaster, you actually have a deeper & personal PACT with the supernatural entity that grants your powers. It works.

Granted, mixing Healing domain with Fiend pact is a bit of a stretch. Then again, there are plenty of examples of devils tempting mortals with offers of health and healing.

Anyway, the point of the build is to leverage the "all access" cleric spell list with the frequency and power of Warlock casting. Cleric's got a lot of spells that scale with spell level, and that combos nicely with the warlock's mechanic.

Also a good fit: Sleep. If there's any way to fit Sleep into your repertoire, do it. Sleep scales wonderfully. At high levels it can be a terrific "closer", especially against creatures who are hard to hit/hard to hurt. It's a heck of a spell when cast with a high-level slot.

I’d probably disallow the Cleric/Warlock combo - it’s just seems like a contradiction in many ways, with Cleric in particular needing to be devoted to one belief or god.

A Wizard/Warlock combo could work fine though I’d imagine people wouldn’t get too excited for it’s combat potential.

I'm having a hard time swallowing the "cleric knows his whole spell list so I can cast any of those spells in the warlock slots because 'he knows them'". Please elaborate on your justification.

borg286 said:

I'm having a hard time swallowing the "cleric knows his whole spell list so I can cast any of those spells in the warlock slots because 'he knows them'". Please elaborate on your justification.

Click to expand...

"If you have both the spellcasting class feature and the pact magic class feature..., you can use the spell slots you gain from the pact magic feature to cast spells you know... from classes with the spellcasting feature." Page 164, 5E PHB, under multiclassing. Works both RAW and RAI.

The thing that's causing problems for me is the spell slots under pact magic for the warlock spell slots. It looks like 5e differentiates between pact magic spell slots and spellcasting spell slots. Between the paragraph that the regaining spell slot sentence resides in and the multiclassing portion of chapter 6, there's sufficient RAI to think that the clerlock spell-slot-short-rest-restoration-trick doesn't work. In the most literal interpretation of RAW, however, this trick works.

The key word is the "or" in
to cast spells you know or have prepared from classes with the Spellcasting class feature
sorcerer + warlock = few spells known
wizard + warlock = 44 spells known
cleric/druid + warlock =

A toned down version I would reword as "to cast spells you know and have prepared, if your spells must be prepared to cast, from classes with the Spellcasting class feature"

Alright, at least for RAW I agree this works. It does seem a bit broken as cleric/druid get vastly superior utility getting a 1/3/5 level dip in warlock.

Well, Tharizdun is a god, and he's mentioned with the Trickery domain in Appendix B, and as a "great old one" in the Warlock section, so...

mgrinshpon said:

"If you have both the spellcasting class feature and the pact magic class feature..., you can use the spell slots you gain from the pact magic feature to cast spells you know... from classes with the spellcasting feature." Page 164, 5E PHB, under multiclassing. Works both RAW and RAI.

Click to expand...

Neither RAW nor RAI, actually. Your second ellipsis is hiding a crucial clause:

"If you have both the spellcasting class feature and the pact magic class feature..., you can use the spell slots you gain from the pact magic feature to cast spells you know or have prepared from classes with the spellcasting feature."

The clear intent is that if the non-warlock class prepares spells, you have to have the spell prepared. That's RAI. As for RAW... by RAW, clerics don't know any spells except for cantrips. Nothing in the cleric class description says you "know" a spell. As a matter of fact, glancing over the other classes, it appears that "known spell" is a technical rules term for "a spell selected on character creation or leveling up, which is then permanently available to cast." Sorcerers, bards, rangers, and warlocks "know" spells. Clerics, wizards, druids, and paladins don't (except, again, for cantrips).

This trick does not work. Cleric/warlock is still a solid build--great way to get heavy armor proficiency for a Strength-based bladelock and access to cure wounds in your quick-refreshing warlock slots--but it doesn't let you pull any "I HAVE ALL THE SPELLS" shenanigans.

mgrinshpon said:

The thing that's causing problems for me is the spell slots under pact magic for the warlock spell slots. It looks like 5e differentiates between pact magic spell slots and spellcasting spell slots. Between the paragraph that the regaining spell slot sentence resides in and the multiclassing portion of chapter 6, there's sufficient RAI to think that the clerlock spell-slot-short-rest-restoration-trick doesn't work. In the most literal interpretation of RAW, however, this trick works.

Click to expand...

With this I agree. It's pretty obviously meant to give you back warlock spell slots only. The "get back all your spells" approach is a funny bit of rules-lawyering, but I can't imagine any DM allowing it to fly. You do, however, get back two warlock slots that you can use to cast cleric spells.

since clerics prepare their list of available spells during a long rest, and since they are allowed to use warlock slot levels to determine maximum spell level known, even a 1st level cleric max level warlock has access to all of the cleric spells, just not at the same time. Each long rest, they have access to wis mod+cleric level spells <=spell slot level.