D&D 5E Contagion and Boss Fights

Andor · Aug 19, 2014

Okay. the Contagion spell is very powerful, no question. It's being discussed as a legendary creature killer.

Does it shut them down completely though?

Contagion, for those without a PHB is a 5th level Necromancy spell.
Casting Time: 1 action, Range: Touch, Components V,S, Duration 7 days

On a hit you inflict a creature with a disease of your choice from a list. At the end of each of it's turns the victin can make a Con save. If they fail three they stop making saves and are sick for the full duration. If they pass three saves before they fail the 3rd the effect ends.

The killer is the disease Slimey Doom. The creature begins to bleed uncontrollably. It has disadvantage on Con checks and saving throws. In addition when it takes damage it it stunned until the end of it's next turn.

D&D Basic Rules said:
Stunned
• A stunned creature is incapacitated (see the condition),
can’t move, and can speak only falteringly.
• The creature automatically fails Strength and
Dexterity saving throws.
• Attack rolls against the creature have advantage.

D&D Basic Rules said:
Incapacitated
• An incapacitated creature can’t take actions
or reactions.

So. They can't move. They can't take actions, and they can't take reactions. The question is, can the still take Bonus actions, can they take Legendary actions, and can they still take Lair actions?

If the action in question doesn't generate movement I'm inclined to say yes.
Thoughts?

Dionysos · Aug 19, 2014

It seems like a stretch to argue that a creature who can't take actions actually can take bonus actions or legendary actions. That terminology seems pretty clear in treating those things as kinds of actions.

So yeah, particularly with regards to how it interacts with legendary creatures, I would have to say that Contagion is broken as written. I've houseruled it for my game.

Dausuul · Aug 19, 2014

I would certainly say that "incapacitated" shuts down bonus actions. Legendary actions... well, yeah, it should shut them down too; a legendary action is still an action.

I think I'd address it by adding the following legendary action for all legendary creatures:

Legendary Surge. If this creature is subject to an effect that requires it to make a saving throw on its turn, it makes a saving throw against that effect. It gains the benefits if the save is successful, but suffers no penalty if the save fails. The creature can take this action even when it would not normally be able to take actions.

Also, I'm inclined to make a house rule that the disadvantage on Con saves does not apply to saving throws against contagion itself. Otherwise no one will ever use anything but Slimy Doom.

the Jester · Aug 19, 2014

Well, remember that legendary creatures have three "get out of jail free" automatic successes on saving throws. That ought to help alleviate the problem.

koga305 · Aug 19, 2014

the Jester said:
Well, remember that legendary creatures have three "get out of jail free" automatic successes on saving throws. That ought to help alleviate the problem.

Normally, it would solve the problem. However, the way Contagion is written the effect automatically applies, and the creature can't get out of it until it takes three turns making saves. Sure, the legendary creature can take auto-succeed on all three of those saves, but it still locks them down for three turns - probably enough for the whole party to whale on it and take it out.

Paraxis · Aug 19, 2014

the Jester said:
Well, remember that legendary creatures have three "get out of jail free" automatic successes on saving throws. That ought to help alleviate the problem.

After three rounds of getting attacked with advantage by the entire party most things are dead I don't think the 3 get out of jail saves are going to help much.

trentonjoe · Aug 19, 2014

Just have it be stunned to the end of its next bonus turn. Then have it resume as normal.

IT's still gonna lose a bunch of action but it won't be useless.

Sword of Spirit · Aug 19, 2014

Sounds like it would be interesting to run a fight between a party with contagion and one of these legendary critters (both sides played intelligently) and see how it ends up.

Dausuul · Aug 19, 2014

Sword of Spirit said:
Sounds like it would be interesting to run a fight between a party with contagion and one of these legendary critters (both sides played intelligently) and see how it ends up.

How? The party has to accomplish two things: Get contagion through, then cause damage to the legendary creature by any means whatsoever (one good way to accomplish this is for the fighter to ready an attack for after the cleric or druid casts the spell). If they succeed, the legendary creature is stunlocked and has no plays, intelligent or otherwise. All it can do is sit there for three rounds while the party unloads on it.

Thinking as a DM, pretty much all I can come up with is for the legendary creature to run like hell. It has to get clear without taking so much as a single point of damage, then wait out the party for 3 rounds. But with the fighter readying 3 attacks (assuming at least level 11) before the creature can even take a legendary action, that's a tall order.

KarinsDad · Aug 19, 2014

Two options:

1) Do not allow the disease to occur until after the third missed save?

2) Do not allow Slimey Doom.

Without the DMG, I'm not quite sure we know how diseases work. It took a while to get all of the symptoms in 4E. I'd be totally ok with #1.