[ot] The Hobbit

WizarDru · Jan 5, 2003

I've just introduced my children to 'The Hobbit', via the Rankin-Bass production. Upon rewatching (and re-enjoying) the story, some things occur to me, and I turn to the vastly knowledgable folks at ENWorld, as always.

Chief among my questions is this: why are the dwarves so darned innefectual? I intend to reread the book shortly, but I recall this being a mark of the book, as well. I mean, is Gimli atypical of his race, or is Thorin's crowd just a bunch of ninnies? Why aren't they even armed until after the troll incident?

Are Glamdring, Orcrist and Sting products of the Second Age? And is Gandalf lying like a bandit at several points in the story, or did Tolkien change events later, when he reconcieved the characters and greater story (i.e. Gandalf not recognizing the symbols on the blades? Huh?) Or am I just misunderstanding events?

Finally, this brings a final, more overall middle-earth question: where the heck are the dwarves throughout most of the War of the Ring? I mean, is Gimli a radically different being than his fellows? To judge Balin and Gloin from their references in Fellowship, you'd think they weren't the same characters from 'the Hobbit'.

If you'll excuse me now, I'm going to sit next to my daughter and enjoy the Smaug scene, again. Now if we can just make her understand there are no 'gelflings' in the Hobbit.

Chauzu · Jan 5, 2003

And how long do Dwarves live in Middle-Earth? As long as a human, or longer?

kengar · Jan 5, 2003

OK, I'm no Tolkien scholar but here's what I can tell you:

Chief among my questions is this: why are the dwarves so darned innefectual? I intend to reread the book shortly, but I recall this being a mark of the book, as well. I mean, is Gimli atypical of his race, or is Thorin's crowd just a bunch of ninnies? Why aren't they even armed until after the troll incident?

The dwarves are 'ninnies' in the Hobbit because Bilbo is the hero and it is a childrens' story. I believe Tolkien wanted to make it easier for young readers to identify with one character, and that was Bilbo.

Are Glamdring, Orcrist and Sting products of the Second Age? And is Gandalf lying like a bandit at several points in the story, or did Tolkien change events later, when he reconcieved the characters and greater story (i.e. Gandalf not recognizing the symbols on the blades? Huh?) Or am I just misunderstanding events?

The blades are from Gondolin, which is Second Age, yes. In the animated movie, Gandalf is made to be more knowledgable than he was in the book. I mean, think about the ending! In the cartoon, he as much as admits that he knows Bilbo has got the One Ring!! If Gandalf knew that then, he would've destroyed the dang thing while Sauron was still just the Necromancer in Dol Guldur instead of letting him get back to Mordor!

Finally, this brings a final, more overall middle-earth question: where the heck are the dwarves throughout most of the War of the Ring? I mean, is Gimli a radically different being than his fellows? To judge Balin and Gloin from their references in Fellowship, you'd think they weren't the same characters from 'the Hobbit'.

The dwarves are probably the same place as most of the elves; at home. The War of the Ring in the LOTR trilogy is humanity's fight. I've always felt a little cheated in that the dwarven role in Middle Earth seemed somewhat overlooked, but that's just the way JRRT wrote it. Gimli was at Rivendell and went with the Fellowship largely because of his father's and his kins' affection for Bilbo.

And how long do Dwarves live in Middle-Earth? As long as a human, or longer?

A bit longer. 300 years or so. Remember, Thorin lived at Lonely Mountain when Smaug arrived and that was a fair stretch back by the time of the story of the Hobbit.

Any of you real Tolkien scholars, feel free to correct me.

Alaric_Prympax · Jan 5, 2003

Not that I'm a Tolkien scholar or anything but...

Gondolin is First Age actually, it was the hidden City-State Kingdom ruled by Turgon, second son of Fingolfin, who at one time was High King of the Noldor after his brother Fingon and before his nephew Gil-galad. Turgon ruled in Nevrast till Ulmo led him to the Valley of Tumladen where he founded Gondolin.

Mathew_Freeman · Jan 5, 2003

The only thing I think I can say with any certainty is that in LotR the Dwarves have their own fight. I'm sure there is some reference to them battling orcs and goblins in the Iron Hills or the Lonely Mountain, and some reference to Bard's son trying to hold Laketown. Can't be sure, but I think that's right.

Anyway, how would all those Dwarves get all the way to Minas Tirith in time to be a part of anything?! With those short stumpy legs...

WizarDru · Jan 5, 2003

Another question (and thanks for the answers already given):

the rankin-bass production features more of said duo's music, but I'm curious how much of said music is based on any of tolkien's material.

I'd check myself, but I've discovered my copy of 'The Hobbit' has gone missing (after several successive moves). My esteemed mate is, even as I type, browsing Barnes & Nobles, seeking said Tome. One hopes she'll resist the urge to get one of the uber-deluxe volumes.

kengar · Jan 5, 2003

WizarDru said:
Another question (and thanks for the answers already given):

the rankin-bass production features more of said duo's music, but I'm curious how much of said music is based on any of tolkien's material.

I'd check myself, but I've discovered my copy of 'The Hobbit' has gone missing (after several successive moves). My esteemed mate is, even as I type, browsing Barnes & Nobles, seeking said Tome. One hopes she'll resist the urge to get one of the uber-deluxe volumes.

"The road goes ever on"

"Goblin town"

are both in the Rankin Bass soundtrack but I don't know how true they are to JRRT's original poems

Alaric & Tallarn, I'm sure you're right. re: Gondolin & Dwarves.

WizarDru · Jan 5, 2003

At least one answer to my question, courtesy of the Encyclopedia of Arda:

The son of Brand and heir to the Lordship of Dale. His father was slain in the Battle of Dale, and Bard was forced back to Erebor, where he was besieged with his ally Thorin III for seven days. When news came from the south of the destruction of Sauron, Bard and Thorin emerged from the Lonely Mountain and broke the siege.

In short, there were several battles, in this case by a massive assualt from the Easterlings, that just never took center stage...but they did take place, which was what I was curious about. I'm also glad to see that the alliance of men and dwarves continued.

Alaric_Prympax · Jan 5, 2003

Ah, the Encyclopedia of Arda, it's a wonderthing.

That's where I confirmed my information.

And kengar, you're welcome.

Lorien was also assualted three times too IIRC.

d20Dwarf · Jan 5, 2003

Ineffectual....why I oughta!!! *sputter*

*looks back at the rogue, who is rolling a marble down the passageway*

Stop rolling that darn marble! I told ya it's a 16-degree grade!

Harumph! What were we talking about again?