D&D 5E Inappropriate breasts on female monsters

Thank Dog

Banned
Banned
Isn't this whole thread about with or without breasts? What is the third option?
Ms. Tridevil?

In fact, it's something of a question why human women have them.
Pretty sure the answer to that one is obvious.

even though I have two very nice B cups...
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They're also highly science oriented so they found the presence of breasts not particularly credible, even in a fantasy setting.
This goes back to my previous arguments about not being realistic when claiming a requirement for realism. If they were really science-oriented then they'd realise that it is entirely reasonable that dragonborn evolved to have breasts in an environment that is wholly different from that on Earth. Drawing parallel assumptions assumes parallel selective pressures which is unrealistic in and of itself.

one as big as dwarven beards on dwarven women...
You take that back! A dwarven woman without a beard is just... ugly!

really? 12 pages on Minotaur boobs and bearded females?

i thought this was a gaming forum.
Umm... that's exactly why there are 12 pages on Minotaur boobs...

Umm..is there any way we can get this thread back on the rails and talk about the OP's comments about creature creation?
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Grainger

Explorer
I haven't characterized anyone anywhere, actually. I'm talking about the movement itself. I have no idea what any individual associated in any way with the movement might think unless they come out and say so.

Nice try, though. The strawman was always a favorite tool of the polezniye duraki. And if you're trying to dismiss my whole post because you're making up some kind of strawman conspiracy element to it, you might want to not also point out that you don't even know what my argument is because you don't know what "most of the stuff in my post" even is. That certainly doesn't lend itself to strengthening your credibility.

Please enlighten me. Sketch out for me exactly how "my" argument leads to this logical conclusion. Please be sure and use actual logic when you do so. I've always preferred dialectic.

Crikey.

I was going to write a point-by-point explanation of what I thought you meant. However, it seems I misunderstood you, so to save a lot of back-and-forth, where I try to work out what you meant (either through my fault, yours, or a combination of the two), could you just clarify how your criticism of feminism relates to the thread, if it wasn't to draw a parallel with the arguments made in it?

Edit: when I posted, I didn't see that the moderators have shut this aspect of the topic down... so that's and end to this then.
 
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Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Nope. That's not what's wrong in this case. The issue is not, "that distresses me". The issue is, "that perpetuates the mindset that supports discrimination".

I disagree. That's not the issue if you don't agree with the presumption that the media has very much (if any) power in that regard.

Umbran said:
Fine. "Correct if reasonably possible." How's that?

Not at all different. Unless I'm misreading your position, you're still advocating that something should be done, because to not do it is impermissible (insofar as people being upset at media is concerned).

Umbran said:
Let's put it this way - having boobless dragonborn going forward isn't going to cost WotC a bajillion dollars (or even noticeable money), is it? The artist isn't going to say, "I'm sorry, but I have to charge you double for them without boobs!" Their sales will not drop noticeably. So, why not just do it?

Leaving aside the issues of money - which aren't relevant to a discussion of moral philosophy (which is what this is) - the problem with asking "why not do it?" is that it's phrased so that the default is that you should do it unless there's a reason not to. It creates the expectation that moral action is required.

Now, I do believe that there are situations - quite a few of them - where moral action is required. But modifying your media so that mollifies the indignation of those who don't like it does not require that level of moral obligation.

Umbran said:
Yep. But when you're trying to make the world a better place, even in a small way, by definition you have to ask people to behave better than they already do, now don't you?

Strictly speaking, no - you can be the change you want to see, rather than impressing on others that they can be the change that you want to see.

Umbran said:
If you accept the status quo, no directed change is possible.

If you're of the opinion that the status quo - at least in terms of art, fiction, or media - is not immoral, then the presumption that change is necessary becomes debatable.
 
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HardcoreDandDGirl

First Post
Let's put it this way - having boobless dragonborn going forward isn't going to cost WotC a bajillion dollars (or even noticeable money), is it? The artist isn't going to say, "I'm sorry, but I have to charge you double for them without boobs!" Their sales will not drop noticeably. So, why not just do it?

ok, but it will cost them 0$ if they continue to publish ones with boobs... so what makes either more right then the other?


Way back when I started in 2e I was trying to find myself... if the part about sex and gender where in that book, and the art was more like 4e or 5e, maybe it would have made a difference to me... I know today it does...
 

Grainger

Explorer
ok, but it will cost them 0$ if they continue to publish ones with boobs... so what makes either more right then the other?

Way back when I started in 2e I was trying to find myself... if the part about sex and gender where in that book, and the art was more like 4e or 5e, maybe it would have made a difference to me... I know today it does...

Yes, the art has improved a lot in its representation of women since 2e and BECMI. I can't remember all of the 80s art, but I do remember a lot of it was pretty iffy - quite a lot of damsels in distress, and improbably armour. The art in 5e is a huge improvement in that regard.
 

Vic Ferrari

Banned
Banned
Oh sure.

But dragon people with mammaries is hardly completely absurd.

It has about as much basis/grounding in reality as dragon people in the first place.


This is just furthering my point, drawing a line is fine at certain points, just because it's fantasy, does not mean humans should all fly, etc.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
In that case, I'll respond that I think the notion of casual sexism as it relates to "dragonboobs" is ridiculous and insulting. When in our culture the icons of feminism, such as Beyonce, revel and even gloat about their sexuality, it makes it absurd, counter-productive and paradoxical to simultaneously insist that in our fantasy art, women need the equivalent of a fantasy hijab because God forbid we think of them as sexy.

1) Bad example - Beyonce is an icon, sure. But for just the reason you mention, some do question her feminist cred*.

But, more importantly, look back at my description of casual sexism - imposing male-oriented sexual imagery onto something that doesn't really need it, and probably shouldn't have it, without really thinking about it. Beyonce is, first and foremost, in the business of making and selling pop/dance music. You know, the stuff played in clubs, where young folks go to drink alcohol, dress provocatively, and gyrate to show their attractiveness and fitness? In effect, Beyonce creates content for human mating rituals! Of course, sex is appropriate to her image! There is nothing *casual* about sexuality for her. It is very considered and planned for effect.

However, last time I checked, that's not what D&D is about. Last time someone asked around here, folks broadly admitted that sexuality really plays little part in their games. Certainly, the core books don't have notable rules for it. Doesn't seem to be a focus of the game, as written. So, why should the art be about it?

2) Strawman. Nobody's talking about fantasy hijabs. The only statements I have seen are for having clothing that is actually suitable for the job the character is supposed to be doing - functional armor, in current discussion. And nobody here is even talking about *all* fantasy art. We are talking about gaming books, only. Given that the game focuses on adventure and action, rather than sexual relationships, showing women performing in the action and adventure roles, rather than sexual roles, seems pretty reasonable.

Feminism has long had a very strong vibe of wanting to have it's cake and eat it too, and now that it can't reasonably make a case anymore that it's fighting for real injustices...

I don't know how you get that idea. I think finding out would go rather beyond the topic of sexism in gaming. But, either you live in another world, in which there aren't still injustices, or you are thinking about something other than what I know of as feminism.


*We can find a more relevant icon. One with credibility in terms of popularity, success/earnings, relevance to the fantasy genre, and with feminist credentials: Emma Watson.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Why?

Seems a very reasonable and germane argument to me. Typically, that "bridge too far" is thinly veiled edition warring with a funny set of glasses and a fake moustache. I hate dragon born because I think they're stupid is a perfectly valid opinion IMO. I hate dragon born despite ignoring fifteen other unrealistic elements because of this one unrealistic element is a much shakier soapbox to stand on.

What the hell does edition warring have to do with disliking boobs on reptilian people?!? I can't dislike them because I think it's one pander to immature fanboys too far to put breasts on creatures that hatch from an egg? I can't dislike boobs on draconian humanoids because WotC had a golden opportunity to do something really different with gender differentiation in the premiere new PC race and blew it?
 

Derren

Hero
What the hell does edition warring have to do with disliking boobs on reptilian people?!? I can't dislike them because I think it's one pander to immature fanboys too far to put breasts on creatures that hatch from an egg? I can't dislike boobs on draconian humanoids because WotC had a golden opportunity to do something really different with gender differentiation in the premiere new PC race and blew it?

A not all that uncommon tactic where, when you run out of arguments, you accuse the opposition of veiled edition warring.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Edit: when I posted, I didn't see that the moderators have shut this aspect of the topic down... so that's and end to this then.

Don't sweat it. I put together a post over the course of the evening, and I didn't notice it either. It's cool. We'll let it drop now.
 

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