D&D 5E Everyone Starts at First Level

Sacrosanct said:

OK, something about this high level minion discussion doesn't sound right. On one side of the argument, it seems as if that low level replacement PC immediately runs into that big baddie. When does this ever happen? Most big baddie lairs have a lot of lower level creatures around (the dragon's territory, etc). By the time the low level replacement PC even runs into the big baddie itself, he or she won't be so low level anymore, so it seem the entire discussion is moot.

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It depends on how the DM handles leveling. I've seen systems of no more than one level per day, or the PC gains all of the levels overnight. Other DMs might do it after a short rest, or even after the combat is finished.

Sacrosanct said:

I.e., even if you had a 10th level party pick up a 1st level PC, the way adventures are structured, the party would most likely get enough XP to hit level 11 before the finale. XP to go from 10 to 11 is roughly the same as going from level 1 to 7. So a 7th level PC in a party of 11th level PCs doesn't necessarily need to just pick off the little guys.

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Even if the DM hands out XP immediately, a party could go in, wipe out most of the minions, have two PCs die, go back in the next day and the new PCs are level one.

Every situation (and table) is different.

I've been doing 1 level lower than the lowest level member of the party, which should work much better in 5e than in 3.x with the bounded accuracy concept. But I may do the 1st level thing, not sure yet. Will talk it over with my players this weekend.

I've mentioned this earlier in the thread, but it bears repeating.

I feel like multi-level parties work really well in 5e. I've had a fair amount of experience with them at low levels.

I don't think characters starting out at level 1 in a high-level party is a good idea however. What I do think is that with the tier system laid out in the PHB (1-4,5-10,11-16,17-20), starting a character out at the bottom of the current tier will work well. So if a 8th level character dies, the player can make a new 5th-level PC and rejoin the party.

TDarien said:

I've mentioned this earlier in the thread, but it bears repeating.

I feel like multi-level parties work really well in 5e. I've had a fair amount of experience with them at low levels.

I don't think characters starting out at level 1 in a high-level party is a good idea however. What I do think is that with the tier system laid out in the PHB (1-4,5-10,11-16,17-20), starting a character out at the bottom of the current tier will work well. So if a 8th level character dies, the player can make a new 5th-level PC and rejoin the party.

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This sounds like the best compromise between the two positions that I have heard so far.

Sabathius42 said:

I TOTALLY agree with everything you said here. I even agree that if I staged a high level battle versus a high powered BBEG I would include lesser creatures to round out the challenge and make the scene feel more organic.

What breaks down for me is not that the bad guy has that mix of high, medium, and low level minions. It is the fact that in those battles only the low level minions can target the low level characters, the middle level minions the middle level characters, and the BBEG only attacks the highest level characters.

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I never said that; in fact, if you parse what I've posted, I put the onus on avoiding the big bad monsters' attacks on the pcs.

Doug McCrae said:

Can PCs in your campaign be returned to life by means of spells such as revivify, raise dead and reincarnate? Or would that defeat the purpose of ES@1st?

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Yes, but most of the time the pcs will have to provide the magic in question. There are few npcs capable of casting raise dead, and revivify needs you to be there immediately.

Sabathius42 said:

I once created Jennifer Connelly (the actress) as a Torg character. She lasted half of an adventure. She ran over a ninja with a convertable then was killed by the remaining ninja.

RE: Letting the high level guys fight the dragon while the low level guy holds off the orcs. This requires way to much suspension of disbelief to pull it off more than once or twice EVER.

GM: OK, the dragon breathes fire on all you guys, make a save....except STEVE, he just happens to be out of range fighting the orc.

JIM: Why is there an orc hanging around in Smaug's cave?

STEVE: Hey, shut up, it give me something to do.

GM: Smaug gets lonely too, he needs a shoulder to cry on. The orc is his bestie.

STEVE: Crit! I slice the orcs face off!!!!

SMAUG: NOOOOOO!!! Not Bob's face!!! If you ever show your face here after you gain a bunch of levels I am SO going to eat YOUR face off. Until then I am just going to eat your friends.

RALPH: Wouldn't it make more sense if the dragon had an orc army?

GM: Yes, you are probably right. 20 more orcs charge from a hidden doorway.

RALPH: Quickened Widened Fireball. Save for 38 damage.

GM: *roll* *roll* *roll* All dead. Except one. He charges STEVE.

STEVE: Awesome. 2nd levell here I come!

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You're missing the point. There are many, many, many ways for low level characters to be useful in a higher level party. That was just one example, and you're right in that I wouldn't use it more than once. And you're example's a strawman - it's about the worst way to design and run the encounter. There are plenty of more believable and interesting ways to do it.

Mishihari Lord said:

You're missing the point. There are many, many, many ways for low level characters to be useful in a higher level party. That was just one example, and you're right in that I wouldn't use it more than once. And you're example's a strawman - it's about the worst way to design and run the encounter. There are plenty of more believable and interesting ways to do it.

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I guess our GMing styles are very different then. I usually aim my encounters using monsters with a CR a point or two higher or lower than the party level. I use creatures with a CR even lower than this range to provide some organicness, but I don't expect them to affect the combat significantly. Kobolds running around the ancient red dragons feet are the combat equivalent of flavor text.

If I had a party of 8th level characters I wouldn't be designing encounters based on CR0-4 creatures. Once in a great while I would as a swarm, say a raiding party of goblins, but even in those situations the sheer numbers of attackers and the likelihood the 1st level guy is going to get overloaded is too great a possibility if I play the monsters according to how I feel they would truly act.

So if everyone in your group wants to play that way *I* certainly am not telling you not to. It works for your group and everyone will have a great time. I can only speak for myself and my group and say that if everyone were 8th level and someone died permanently they would create a new character at a similar level (my rule has usually been lowest XP amount in party -5%) to everyone else.

It makes that player feel more useful in combat. It makes my job as a GM struggling with encounter balance easier.

SEPARATE BUT RELATED THOUGHT: If hirelings that tracked XP were following the PCs around but "guarded the horses" during combats and were never in actual danger I wouldn't give them XP for an encounter they took no part in. If a 1st level PC hid outside the danger zone while the rest of the party fought an encampment of ogres he wouldn't get XP. Only by engaging in the combat in some way (other than hiding) does he/she get a share, and that would make them a target of the encounter as legitimate as any other target.

Even since the earliest days of GMing, I have always found it easiest to allow new player characters and replacements to have the same experience as the lowest experience of the characters in the ongoing party. When I have made pregens for a one-shot, tourney, or the like, I choose one appropriate amount of experience and make the pregens at the level they would be based on that amount. That has worked in every edition of D&D I have run and simplifies things for me. Depending on the campaign's level of magic and tech, I work with the player of the new or replacement character in regards to gear to ensure they aren't at a severe disadvantage.

Hiya.

For me, with 5e, I'm going to go back to a sort of Fate-point system. Characters will start at level 1, but they will have 1 "fate point" per day, equal to the lowest party member -2. So if the lowest party member is 5th level, the new 1st level PC will have 3 "Fate Points". These Fate Points recover at 1 per day of rest (Long Rest in 5e terms).

Fate Points are a simple and effective mechanic that I first encountered back with Warhammer Fantasy Role-Play (1e) when it first came out (1985 or 1986 I think). Basically, they are "get out of jail free" cards. A player can use a Fate Point to save his characters posterior. When I GM WHFRP, we always play with the Fate Point being more or less absolute unless there is simply no feasible way to save the character (re: the character falls into the center of an active volcano). All other options are on the table though. So, for the dragon breathing example, the character would likely have to spend a Fate Point. I, the GM, then come up with something that "saves" the character; the character is usually injured and/or removed from the fight...but they live.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

pming said:

Hiya.

For me, with 5e, I'm going to go back to a sort of Fate-point system. Characters will start at level 1, but they will have 1 "fate point" per day, equal to the lowest party member -2. So if the lowest party member is 5th level, the new 1st level PC will have 3 "Fate Points". These Fate Points recover at 1 per day of rest (Long Rest in 5e terms).

Fate Points are a simple and effective mechanic that I first encountered back with Warhammer Fantasy Role-Play (1e) when it first came out (1985 or 1986 I think). Basically, they are "get out of jail free" cards. A player can use a Fate Point to save his characters posterior. When I GM WHFRP, we always play with the Fate Point being more or less absolute unless there is simply no feasible way to save the character (re: the character falls into the center of an active volcano). All other options are on the table though. So, for the dragon breathing example, the character would likely have to spend a Fate Point. I, the GM, then come up with something that "saves" the character; the character is usually injured and/or removed from the fight...but they live.

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I hate fate points with a passion, be it as a DM or a player.

It's much better if the players' actions save the day and prevent a PC death or TPK, than if some "oops" game mechanic does it.

Players also tend to play stupidly riskier if some game mechanic is going to bail their butts out of the fire.

I vastly prefer giving the players a few "go to the well" magic items for them to pull out and use when the dice go cold, the DM foobars and sends in too challenging of an encounter, and/or the players make bad decisions.

Bad/unlucky things can and do happen, but that's no reason to change the game system to make it easier. A real challenge of PC death should always be possible. Maybe not likely, but possible.