D&D 5E Dungeonscape no more?

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First Post
Setting aside contractural and financial issues, was DungeonScape ever going to have succeeded as a software engineering project? I think not, and I say that as an ex-software engineer and long-time D&D player, having tested the web beta and seen the way it was designed and implemented. I haven't seen the eBook side of the product - it wasn't in the web beta - but I'm prepared to take on trust that it would have worked fine. It was the character builder that killed it.

Trapdoor are an eBook team. That's what they know about. When you are designing and building an eBook, the purpose of it is to get information from the author to the reader's brain as easily and painlessly as possible. Ideally, the software itself should fade into the background. The reader needs to be able to turn the page back and forth and do a few other things, but most of his attention is going to be on reading and assimilating the text. The primary information flow is one-way.

Trapdoor saw the character builder the same way. They thought that the primary purpose of the character builder was to present to players information about what a character is like but with the user being able to choose which pages to read - different pages for different classes, races, backgrounds and so on. In other words, an electronic PHB.

When they built that and offered it to us, they hit a wall. Because we don't see a character builder as a book. We see it as a tool for building characters. A software tool where we click buttons and out pops a character sheet.

A software tool, such as a word processor or a CAD package or a program development environment, is a quite different animal from an eBook reader. The way you go about designing it is fundamentally different at a conceptual level. The primary information flow is from the user to the software (with feedback to reassure the user that he has done what he intended) and the purpose of that is to control what goes into the document that he intends to produce. The document is not delivered from a remote author to the user, it is created by the user himself. A fundamentally different kind of software needing fundamentally different design techniques and, if you want to employ specialist software designers, you need a different set of people with different expertise.

Imagine you wrote an instruction manual for an electric screwdriver. It might be an excellent manual, telling the user exactly what he wanted to know, but the manual itself would nevertheless be useless for driving screws. For that, you need the actual tool, not the manual. And the right person to design an electric screwdriver is someone who understands torque and shear strength and the flow rate of cooling air. That's not the same person as the one who knows about punctuation and font sizes and wrote that excellent manual.

Trapdoor is a good team of people for doing what they are good at but they are completely the wrong team of people to design a character builder. They tried, but they failed. Releasing them from WotC's control, which is what has just happened, is the best thing all round. They can re-position themselves to concentrate on what they are good at, and maybe recoup some of their investment, while WotC go a different way.
 

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Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Likewise, a system that's only getting 30-40% conversion means 60% of the player base is new. That's doing SOMETHING right.

That's not what that means. It means x% of 3.x players upgraded, not that x% of 4E players came from.
 
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I don't think we can necessarily infer from a 4-year lifespan that 4E was profitable. Throwing good money after bad is a time-honored tradition in corporate America (and everywhere else, really -- I think it has to do with the way we as a species perceive risk).

short of a substance abuse problem being taken off the oldest profession as a table for some of the higher ups, and the company footing the bill... I can't imagine how they could not have turned a HUGE profit off of DDI alone... heck in the time the playtest ran when no updates where being made I bet DDI is what kept the doors open... they used 4e's HUGE profit to finance the playtest of 5e...
 

77IM

Explorer!!!
Supporter
Am I the only one who thinks that the real boneheaded move here was the way WotC hyped DungeonScape as part of their 5e marketing?

Software projects get canceled all the time for a variety of really good reasons. If no-one had ever heard of DungeonScape then this would be a non-announcement; there'd be a tweet from Mearls saying "digital tools taking a lot longer than we hoped and won't be ready for this year's holiday season," or something similarly not-a-big-deal.

Modern marketing is less about maintaining an image and more about delivering on promises. It was a dumb move to announce DungeonScape and get people excited about it if WotC wasn't 100% committed and didn't have a mostly-finished product in-hand.
 

mcbobbo

Explorer
it would be really generous to say that cancelling dungeonscape (in the absolute absence of any other plan) was functional management :D.

Well, considering the alternatives seem to have been:

A) Let the deadlines slip, therefore releasing nothing.
B) Release an unfinished product with the promise you'll fix it later.
C) End the exclusivity and compete against yourself.

...and that's about all I can imagine. If you're seeing a more 'functional' decision that could fill 'D', please share it.

what it looks like is they just hoped this thing would somehow work and they could monetize something out of it. but it didn't. oh well, things fail sometimes...and well meaning people can do stupid things(see this forum for further examples...but i kid :D).

No, I think WotC put the entire project in Trapdoor's hands, with an expectation of 'X' delivered by 'Y' date. When that wasn't going to happen, they pulled the plug. That's my best guess.

Because like others have said, I would have expected the PC generation stuff to coincide with the launch of the PHB. Think about it, who needs more help creating characters, people who have had the book for a year, or people who just bought it?

what's important is to acknowledge that it failed and recognize that fans want to hear about what's on the way in the form of digital content. the bad way to handle this would be with silence/vague jargon/lying. cause right now this really feels dysfunctional to me.

Here we agree. I think a better strategy would have been...

1) Placate Trapdoor and set a milestone a few weeks down the road
2) In the meantime, line up an alternative project to serve as a replacement
3) When things are lined up and the agreements all signed, THEN tell Trapdoor it is over and announce to the community what the new project is going to be

Or something like that, anyway. Plan, then act - kind of a thing.

If you have been on these boards for the last year you would hear everything yelling at everyone else saying " we don't need PDFs dungeonscape will take care of that". Seriously every single thread someone posted about PDFs that's the reply you would hear.

As a PDF advocate, I agree that this was the patent response. But be aware that we'll likely see quite a few voices now who never personally said that, while those who were wrong about it will keep quiet. If anyone says "yes, I said that", I'd personally be a bit shocked. Just saying...
 

Iosue

Legend
As a PDF advocate, I agree that this was the patent response. But be aware that we'll likely see quite a few voices now who never personally said that, while those who were wrong about it will keep quiet. If anyone says "yes, I said that", I'd personally be a bit shocked. Just saying...

Yes, I said that. Because that was the situation.

Mearls Interview said:
Yea I was going to ask about that [PDF sales]…

You know we haven’t announced anything official yet, but I’d be surprised if we released the PDF to be exactly as the book. Because I think that we’ll sit down and look at a PDF format of the book and say well what’s the best format that could take? It really does make good sense to have it sort of stripped down and in a utilitarian layout.

Because you know what? I’m actually just using this because I just want to get some rules at the table. Maybe I just want to be on a plane or just sitting around and want a quick reference that’s a quick read and just the information I want. So what does that do to the [PDF] design? We strip out a lot of the art and make it utilitarian. Or we break it up and actually the ebook version is actually three books, we’ve broken it up into three parts, and each topic is now a separate book. So maybe I’m playing a Wizard, and I’m just using the Basic D&D, but I want more spells… so I’m just wanting the spell chapters, so maybe I spend 5 bucks or 2 bucks just so I have that indexed or bookmarked and can quickly reference my spells. You know, what is the usefulness of that? Just as a bibliophile wants the whole book as a physical artifact, the digital only user, well, what is the best way for them to get access to the game.

So there is nothing concrete yet, but those are just some of the possibilities being discussed?

Yea exactly. Especially with the Dungeonscape Tool that Trapdoor [Technologies] is working on, and how they are going to approach things and what features they are going to have, could that kinda feed that need? Because we asked that it be iOS, Android, PC, so maybe you can just download the app and then buy the say Fighter packet and however we’re breaking it down, so are we really going to need to sell a separate PDF because actually the best way is to buy the tool, and the tool is also populating my database and I can make characters, then maybe I just don’t necessarily need the PDF. So a lot of it is just trying to figure out where things are with what they’re [Trapdoor Technologies] is doing, and we just don’t want to rush into something and then you’re like but I just bought the PDF and then the tools came out, and now I’m paying twice for the same content, that would make you upset. So it’s really just figuring out what is the best thing for the gaming audience at this point.

You might not have been happy with that answer, but that's what the answer was.
 

Grimstaff

Explorer
For some strange, masochistic reason I read through the entire thread in a kind of cannot-pull-my-eyes-away-from-trainwreck fascination. The thread seems like a rather theatrical performance of ragequit and Jump to Conclusions! My advice: Let's wait and see what is actually going to happen before freaking out.

View attachment 64855

Ha! Lol

I'm not sure what people are expecting by way of an explanation. If WotC just came out and said "we fired Dungeonscape for gross incompetence" or whatever it would be at best unprofessional and at worst an invitation to defamation lawsuits. "We've decided to part ways" is probably as much explanation as we're ever going to (officially) get.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
Because like others have said, I would have expected the PC generation stuff to coincide with the launch of the PHB. Think about it, who needs more help creating characters, people who have had the book for a year, or people who just bought it?

I used to think this way too... but having now followed the immediate ramp-up to the release of the 5E Player's Handbook, plus seeing the inconsistent rules results and presentation in Hoard of the Dragon Queen... I think that it's pretty obvious that getting a working Character Builder released at the same time as the PH was and is an impossibility. The rules within the PH were constantly in flux for so long that they would have had to finalize the ruleset and book, and then *sit on it* for like six months without printing it... all in order to give both Kobold Press and whomever designed the CB the time to see the rules, absorb the rules, and then put those rules fully edited into practice in their respective products.

This is especially true with a Character Builder. Trying to program all these different fields for 12 different classes whose features were always changing (thus requiring new fields, new background math, and new written descriptions in every field after EVERY design build given to them from WotC) would take a HUGE amount of time. Much, *much* longer than the what, two months(?) of actual time that occurred between the finalization of the PH and the book's printing and release.

If they didn't feel like they could release the MM and DMG at the same time they released the PH... there's no way in heck they could have built, programmed and debugged an entire fully-edited computer program too. It just wasn't happening. And I realize that now.
 

mcbobbo

Explorer
I used to think this way too... but having now followed the immediate ramp-up to the release of the 5E Player's Handbook, plus seeing the inconsistent rules results and presentation in Hoard of the Dragon Queen... I think that it's pretty obvious that getting a working Character Builder released at the same time as the PH was and is an impossibility.

Then how did http://pathguy.com/ddnext.htm manage to do it?

I realize there would have been a need for a patch, and possibly a downtime, somewhere after release, but dead-tree books are much more difficult to change than electronic resources. HotDQ went to print early enough to hit shelves, and so had to go with a 'flux' ruleset. But software doesn't work that way.
 

Mercurius

Legend
Ha! Lol

I'm not sure what people are expecting by way of an explanation. If WotC just came out and said "we fired Dungeonscape for gross incompetence" or whatever it would be at best unprofessional and at worst an invitation to defamation lawsuits. "We've decided to part ways" is probably as much explanation as we're ever going to (officially) get.

Agreed, but not only that, I just think it is too soon to throw in the towel about 5E or digital releases or PDFs for that matter. This was announced yesterday. Let's see how it unfolds before we announce "WotC hates all things digital and thus hates me because I prefer to use digital stuff over print stuff."
 

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