Immortal's Handbook continuation thread

Upper_Krust · Feb 6, 2003

Hi Anubis mate!

I hope you have been keeping well?

Anubis said:
UK, sorry to do this, but I still have to point out some obvious flaws in your system regarding lower levels.

Feel as free to point them out as I will to easily debunk them mate!

Anubis said:
I point you to the bugbear, CR 2 by the book, CR 2.2 by your system. Your system would also suggest that a single bugbear is an EL 5 encounter. Um, sorry, but that is OBVIOUSLY not the case.

You understand when you make these sweeping statements in upper case format it just makes the eventual smackdown that much sweeter.

Anubis said:
A standard level 1 party could defeat a bugbear with only minor difficulty.

Okay lets assume a party of four 1st-level PCs with default array ability scores (15; 14; 13; 12; 10; 8).

Individual PC CR 1 + 1.2 for ability scores = CR 2.2 (CR 2)

CR 2 = EL 5

Four PCs = EL +4 (PEL = EL-4)

Therefore PEL = 5

The bugbear represents a moderate encounter (EL +/-0). The PCs should win easily.

Anubis said:
In fact, the ONLY current CR 2 monsters worthy of an EL 5 mark are the ogre and the loxo, and I think even they are only a 3 or 4.

Try not to forget that the PC Encounter Level is modified the same as Monster EL.

Anubis said:
I still think messing with the lower levels is a bad idea.

Not at all.

Anubis said:
I also think that taking the rolles ability scores into consideration for purposes of determining PEL is pedantic and unnecessary.

It is both necessary and hardly overtly pedantic given its almost never going to have a negligable effect.

Anubis said:
Where do you draw the line?

At all non-permanent effects and magic items as I specified.

Anubis said:
What happens when a bull's strength spell is cast on the character? Does he suddenly rise up in his EL? NO. Duh. The actual levels take ALL of this into account to begin with, which is why you gain no XP for summoned creatures as well.

Did you miss the sidebar pointed out in the document I gave you!? All this is already explained I fail to see where your confusion stems from!?

Anubis said:
What about permanent magical items such as a belt of giant strength?

Personally I wouldn't count them. Simply because they are part of your wealth allowance.

Anubis said:
Basically, you're "double-taxing" this stuff. Level accounts for wealth which accounts for the magical items, and level and race account for ability scores.

No I'm not double taxing stuff - you are!

Anubis said:
I do think that "above the norm" ability scores for other various races (such as Str+10 for the ogre) should be taken into account, but ONLY when determining ECL for purposes of character level.

Ability Scores are pertinent.

IT WAS YOU WHO INITIALLY POINTED THIS OUT TO ME!

Anubis said:
Also, XP should NOT be gained by EL, but by each creature's individual CR, otherwise you're screwing PCs out of XP.

Actually the total opposite is true. If you assign EXP by CR, THEN you are screwing them out of EXP.

eg. Are you trying to say 109th-level characters should gain no EXP from defeating 100th-level opponents even though we know the difference in power is negligable!?

Anubis said:
EL works for matched encounters because the XP is the same anyway, but for mixed, it does not work at all. Take your example in that PDF with the pit fiends, gelugons, and dragon. The example puts it at EL 24. For a PEL 20, that nets 24000 XP. If, however, you do it the RIGHT way and determine XP per monster, the XP award is actually 31000. That 7000 can make a huge difference, ya' know. Or is your purpose actually to prevent effective level gaining as per the rules?

The Core Rules don't give anywhere near an accurate outline of mixed opponents.

Anubis said:
Methinks you should rethink some of this stuff.

I appreciate your help mate - though I think I have everything under control.

Keep trying to break the system though; its always possible I have missed something.

Anubis said:
As it stands, I'm not sure how to incorporate the good parts of your system (the ELs over 20 and other such things) without using the parts that are obviously flawed as much as the core rules. Perhaps you could enlighten me on these.

Judging by your above arguments - its all good.

Anubis said:
(On a side note, ECL can be determined by your current tables and done as a simple permanent modifier to character, so problem solved there. But that still makes a big problem with normal races.)

What problem with normal races?

Dark Wolf 97 · Feb 6, 2003

Great FAQ, UK!
So here are some questions for your next(or updated) one

1) Will you have examples of Over/Elder/Cosmic Deities?

2) How much will the PDFs and print retail for?

3) Is there a great difference in the power between a DvR 20 and a DvR 21 Deity? Is the difference like Lvl 20 and 21 characters? Or like 20th and 100th Lvl characters?

4) Have you play-tested with a group of your own?

.......theres alot more but I don't wanna bog you down and keep you from the book!

Upper_Krust · Feb 6, 2003

Hi there Dark Wolf 97!

Dark Wolf 97 said:
Great FAQ, UK!

Thanks! Although I think one or two points need expanding upon, especially the opening question.

But I was reticent to give out lists of certain elements since I'm sure I will still end up changing things before the works release. So I could rattle off details like: 60+ new Epic Spells; 60+ new Deific Abilities; 60+ new Cosmic Abilities; 30+ new Omnific Abilities; 15+ Metempiric Abilities (Don't even ask!

); 60+ new Weapon Special Abilities; 30+ new Armour Special Abilities; 60+ new Artifacts; 60+ new Epic Monsters*; 46 Portfolios and much, much more - but the chances are those details are likely to ebb and flow as I tinker with things right up until the release.

*I actually have over 100 Monsters but I have to draw the line somewhere.

Dark Wolf 97 said:
So here are some questions for your next(or updated) one

Sure fire away!

Dark Wolf 97 said:
1) Will you have examples of Over/Elder/Cosmic Deities?

Yes; at least five. I am trying to squeeze in as much as possible so maybe one or two others?

I will confirm that Surtur is one of those detailed. Lets just say the version in Deities & Demigods was an Avatar at best; this one is the 200' tall mythological big bad elder entity of fire and evil; ready to reduce your world to ashes. A being even Odin fears.

Dark Wolf 97 said:
2) How much will the PDFs and print retail for?

It will vary depending on things like page count and the amount of art. The opening pdf 'Apotheosis' will be 96 pages; as will the Bestiary section although obviously it will have much more art. I'll try and squeeze the other pdfs into 48 pages though that may not be possible.

The exact price is yet to be determined between myself and the publisher but I am confident it will be competitive with current pdf prices.

Dark Wolf 97 said:
3) Is there a great difference in the power between a DvR 20 and a DvR 21 Deity? Is the difference like Lvl 20 and 21 characters? Or like 20th and 100th Lvl characters?

I don't use Divine Ranks; I use Divine Status (Demigod; Lesser God; Intermediate God etc.) instead. Divine Rank is much too pedantic and totally unnecessary. However, practically all my revisions are compatible with Divine Ranks.

Each Divine Status is roughly x1.5 CR beyond the previous status.

Elder Gods will be in and around CR 250 or so.

Once you get to beings like Time Lords their capabilities are so insane that challenge rating just goes berserk. I mean I have sketched out CR 60,000 Eternals* ~ but even I realise at that point its anybodies guess. The bulk of the material is of course directed at Immortals (Hero-deities to Greater Deities) though; so don't worry I haven't overloaded on the cosmic stuff; theres just enough to flesh all that out and make it interesting.

*...and yes there are things even more powerful.

Dark Wolf 97 said:
4) Have you play-tested with a group of your own?

With the Worship Points System mechanics yes. But with the recent stuff I have devised all playtesting has been inhouse shall we say.

Dark Wolf 97 said:
.......theres alot more but I don't wanna bog you down and keep you from the book!

Hey thats what I'm here for, fire away.

You might think of something I haven't that I could add in.

DarkElven · Feb 7, 2003

As usual great work U_K! I know that all this waiting hasn't been in vain.

"Yes. As well as presenting a plethora of new material it seeks to marry ideas from Deities & Demigods and the Epic Level Handbook."

A wedding!? And I haven't been invited?

Well I can see that you were busy and all, and its excusable that you might forget, once.
Just reading about the goodies that you have in store for us has me chomping at the bit.

This question is one you have undoubtedly answered before (quite likely you've already told ME this once or twice but you know what a glutton I am for the same information) but the adventures you have planned out generally have the character deities at what level of power?

And another thing, how have you been able to get so much work done while answering all these questions? Methinks your avatar is out there slavishly typing out pages for you while you blithely drop hints to whip people into a frenzy, tearing each other apart in anticipation. I dont suppose YOUR character would be making any cameos. Maybe we should try to get you to write a Story Hour

.

I had some questions on the cosmology you would use as a basis but I can get to that at another time (primarily because I really should be sleeping right now

)

Peter Molyneux really ought to hire you as a consultant for Black & White 3.I know that they already have the b&w series planned out to 5. They should not be allowed to even think of approaching this without your definitive work guiding their hands but alas...

Edit: Hmmm it appears I've fallen in the middle of some sort of long running mechanics debate. I guess thats what happens when I can only check up once in a while

Dark Wolf 97 · Feb 7, 2003

WOW, sounds great.

And if what you say is any indication, once I get the print, I'll have several sleepless, caffeine filled nights.

I'm looking foward to it!

Until you paraphrased everything in it, I never realized the scope of the IH, and I am thankful for all the creative people (yourself among others) willing to spend months (or years) making my and fellow gamer's campains funner and more fufiling. Unfortunatly, I'll probably never use half of this stuff, but thats ok.

So, I say again.....WOW.

Anubis · Feb 7, 2003

Upper_Krust said:
Hi Anubis mate!

I hope you have been keeping well?

Yep!

Upper_Krust said:
Feel as free to point them out as I will to easily debunk them mate!

You understand when you make these sweeping statements in upper case format it just makes the eventual smackdown that much sweeter.

Okay lets assume a party of four 1st-level PCs with default array ability scores (15; 14; 13; 12; 10; 8).

Individual PC CR 1 + 1.2 for ability scores = CR 2.2 (CR 2)

CR 2 = EL 5

Four PCs = EL +4 (PEL = EL-4)

Therefore PEL = 5

The bugbear represents a moderate encounter (EL +/-0). The PCs should win easily.

Yet if the PCs all had 10 in every score, you're saying they should receive four times the XP! Um, no. They party with 10 in everything should be able to have only a marginally tougher time, not a significantly more difficult.

Upper_Krust said:
Try not to forget that the PC Encounter Level is modified the same as Monster EL.

Not at all.

It is both necessary and hardly overtly pedantic given its almost never going to have a negligable effect.

At all non-permanent effects and magic items as I specified.

Did you miss the sidebar pointed out in the document I gave you!? All this is already explained I fail to see where your confusion stems from!?

I must have missed that. So you're saying only the natural scores count then?

Upper_Krust said:
Personally I wouldn't count them. Simply because they are part of your wealth allowance.

No I'm not double taxing stuff - you are!

Ability Scores are pertinent.

IT WAS YOU WHO INITIALLY POINTED THIS OUT TO ME!

FOR MONSTERS. NOT for PCs. I have NEVER supported taking PC ability scores into account when assigning power levels and XP.

Upper_Krust said:
Actually the total opposite is true. If you assign EXP by CR, THEN you are screwing them out of EXP.

eg. Are you trying to say 109th-level characters should gain no EXP from defeating 100th-level opponents even though we know the difference in power is negligable!?

That's not what I meant. Your system says to assign XP based on the "overall encounter level" of the entire encounter, and THAT screwed PCs out of XP. XP should be assigned PER MONSTER, using each single monster's EL.

On that note, I would HIGHLY suggest changing some definitions so that yours do not collide with the core rules as they now do. I would keep EL as overall encounter level, only for a DM to determine challenge. You can't change CR any more than it already is, so just give what YOU call EL another name, such as ACR (Adjusted Challenge Rating) or EPR (Effective Power Rating). Then use EL ONLY for DM reference for challenges, while using single monster EPRs (formerly ELs) when determining XP. That way, your system takes full effect while not screwing PCs out of XP due to lumping everything together.

Upper_Krust said:
The Core Rules don't give anywhere near an accurate outline of mixed opponents.

Only your XP awarding is flawed on the mixed encounter thing. Other than that, I like it.

Upper_Krust said:
I appreciate your help mate - though I think I have everything under control.

Keep trying to break the system though; its always possible I have missed something.

Well I can easily do so.

You say ability scores go to the adjusted CR of a PC? What happens with monster PCs and the like? Their LEVEL needs to be adjusted upwards because of ability scores in most cases. Yet YOU would ALSO tax them twice by making them earn even less XP due to their ability scores being counted twice!

For instance, take the ogre. An ogre PC gets Str +10, Dex -2, Con +4, Int -4, Cha -4. That's a total of ECL +0.4 for ability scores. Then we get +1 for 4 Giant HD, +0.5 for 5 natural armor, and +0.5 for being Large. So we have an over +2.4 ECL for ogre characters, which rounds to +2 ECL. Sounds fair. An ogre with one class level is character level 3 and so on and so forth. So far so good.

Now we get to his CR. His ability scores are worth 7.6, he has 3 character levels, and still gets +1 for Giant HD, +0.5 for natural armor, and +0.5 for being Large, bringing the total to 12.6! To make it worse, that also makes him UK EL (EPR/ACR, whatever you decide to change it to, which I hope you do) 15! I'm sorry, but that is WAY too much for an ogre with ONE class level. Not only that, you are indeed double-taxing EVERYTHING. It's all in the ECL to begin with, and then it gets added AGAIN for CR!

How do you intend to correct this?

Upper_Krust said:
Judging by your above arguments - its all good.

What problem with normal races?

Gez · Feb 7, 2003

Re: Immortals Handbook FAQ

Hiya !

I've read the FAQ, and there's one thing that bugs me...

Upper_Krust said:
3. Is this a standalone game?
A: No. It requires the Core Rulebooks and the Epic Level Handbook. Deities & Demigods is compatible but not necessary.

... I have bought Deities & Demigods, but not the ELH...

poilbrun · Feb 7, 2003

Anubis said:
Yet if the PCs all had 10 in every score, you're saying they should receive four times the XP! Um, no. They party with 10 in everything should be able to have only a marginally tougher time, not a significantly more difficult.

I feel the difference in ability scores is most important at low level, the example you're using yourself. You can't really be serious when you say that a freshly-created 1st-level character with 10 in every ability score is more or less the equal of a freshly-created 1st-level character with 18 in every ability score. I agree that some classes benefit less than others from high ability scores, but for some, it is really important. A fighter with only 18's has an AC that is higher by 4, has 40% more hit points, has +4 to hit and damage compared to a fighter with 10's in his ability scores. Of course, at level 100, the difference would be a lot less important. But you cannot say that the ability scores do not have an impact at all. And if it has an impact on the character, I think it should be reflected in the character's CR.

Upper_Krust · Feb 7, 2003

Hi DarkElven mate!

DarkElven said:
As usual great work U_K! I know that all this waiting hasn't been in vain.

I should sincerely hope not!

DarkElven said:
"Yes. As well as presenting a plethora of new material it seeks to marry ideas from Deities & Demigods and the Epic Level Handbook."

A wedding!? And I haven't been invited?

I was told you always cry at weddings and I didn't want to upset you.

DarkElven said:
Well I can see that you were busy and all, and its excusable that you might forget, once.
Just reading about the goodies that you have in store for us has me chomping at the bit.

Sometimes those bits can be mighty tasty!

DarkElven said:
This question is one you have undoubtedly answered before (quite likely you've already told ME this once or twice but you know what a glutton I am for the same information) but the adventures you have planned out generally have the character deities at what level of power?

There is a very brief adventure for Hero-deities but the main adventure is for Demigods (though I am sure it could be easily tweaked for Quasi-deities or Lesser Gods).

DarkElven said:
And another thing, how have you been able to get so much work done while answering all these questions?

I haven't been answering too many questions lately. The discussion over at Andy Collins Forums two weeks ago did tax me somewhat but that one had to be taken all the way; honour was at stake.

DarkElven said:
Methinks your avatar is out there slavishly typing out pages for you while you blithely drop hints to whip people into a frenzy, tearing each other apart in anticipation.

Admittedly it would be nice if I had an Avatar; but that would mean using up worship points.

DarkElven said:
I dont suppose YOUR character would be making any cameos.

Yes, Thrin is one of the Immortal iconics.

DarkElven said:
Maybe we should try to get you to write a Story Hour .

Technically there is already a thread in the Story Hour by S'mon. However, its only with Clerics of Thrin rather than the big guy himself.

DarkElven said:
I had some questions on the cosmology you would use as a basis but I can get to that at another time (primarily because I really should be sleeping right now )

The cosmology is big, lets put it like that. The book doesn't claim to be a setting so I'll be trying to keep this stuff in check; I know that most of you have your own cosmologies. Most of it seems modular; I mean if you don't want to acknowledge Time Lords you don't have to; or even if you don't want to use Cosmic deities or create your own progression then thats okay.

DarkElven said:
Peter Molyneux really ought to hire you as a consultant for Black & White 3.I know that they already have the b&w series planned out to 5. They should not be allowed to even think of approaching this without your definitive work guiding their hands but alas...

Funny enough I would like to try my hand at computer game design; in fact thats what I was planning on doing before I got sidetracked into this roleplaying game malarkey!

DarkElven said:
Edit: Hmmm it appears I've fallen in the middle of some sort of long running mechanics debate.

I'll have that sorted faster than a Darth Vader edification.

DarkElven said:
I guess thats what happens when I can only check up once in a while

No harm done mate I assure you.

Upper_Krust · Feb 7, 2003

Hello again Dark Wolf 97 mate!

Dark Wolf 97 said:
WOW, sounds great.

I'll try not to disappoint you.

Dark Wolf 97 said:
And if what you say is any indication, once I get the print, I'll have several sleepless, caffeine filled nights. I'm looking foward to it!

Its only fair considering the sleepless nights I have had throughout its inception.

Dark Wolf 97 said:
Until you paraphrased everything in it, I never realized the scope of the IH, and I am thankful for all the creative people (yourself among others) willing to spend months (or years) making my and fellow gamer's campains funner and more fufiling.

If we didn't enjoy it I am sure we wouldn't be doing it.

Dark Wolf 97 said:
Unfortunatly, I'll probably never use half of this stuff, but thats ok.

I would be curious if I had actively used more than half the spells in the PHB or more than half the magic items in the DMG.

Better to have too many ideas than too few; that way theres more chance of someone finding something they like.