Debunking the myth there are no "heroes" in "A Song of Ice & Fire"

King_Stannis · Jan 26, 2003

Over the recent past I've heard given, as a weakness in Martin's "A Song of Ice & Fire" series, the fact that there are no true heroes or people to root for. I think it's time to set the record straight, as it were, on that issue. I'm going to give my list of "good guys" from the series, and I'll stack them up against any pollyana "black and white" - "good vs. evil" fantasy story. Please note that there could very well be SPOILERS ahead...

Jon Snow - Obviously, he is about as good as they come. At times he's shown as being conflicted, but show me anytime he's done something that could be called "evil"? And, for the most part, you are meant to be rooting for him as the "underdog" hero. He serves faithfully and is a credit to his upbringing by the Starks.

Ser Davos - There's hardly any shades of gray with Davos. He is about as honest and as loyal as they come. He desires only to give good counsel to Stannis and is the driving force behind what happened at the end of Book 3. Again, show me anything "evil" that this guy has done and it'll be the first I've heard of it.

Barristan Selmy - While not a POV character, this guy is the epitome of honor and loyalty. He's about as pure an archetypical "old and honorable hero" as they come.

Catelyn - Much of the disaffection with Catelyn comes because of her estrangement with Jon. Still, how can you blame her? Ned couldn't or wouldn't shed any light on who is mother was (*cough* Lyanna), and here she is, supposed to welcome him with open arms. It's a little petty, yes, but you can hardly even say that Jon hates her for it. So why then should the reader?

Aside from that, she called her sister's madness for what it was. She counseled against going to war with the Lannisters in the first place, even to "avenge Ned". When war came she served Robb faithfully as counselor and mother. She tried to bring peace between Renly and Stannis as well.

While it's a harder sell than the others, I'll go out on a limb and say that Catelyn, while at times is irritating, for the most part acts quite heroically.

I'd be interested to hear of any other characters I might have missed. There are some that I would personally include, like Stannis and Dany, but I can kind of see where people would not view them in the same light as the ones I mentioned.

Also, I'd like to hear any rebuttals of the characters I listed. Are there any reasons you can think of that they would not be considered, on the whole, particualry heroic?

KenM · Jan 26, 2003

I'm only about halfway though first book, but I like it. GRRM has shown in an intellegent way that no one is "pure good" or "pure evil" we all have our faults. What I have read so far has the most realisitic characters.

Mistwell · Jan 26, 2003

The problem is that those "heros" you mention are, for the most part, not the point of view of the books. Most are minor characters. Jon is probably the closest to a hero you have in the books, and yet little time has been devoted to Jon so far.

It would be like telling the story of World War II from the perspective of Hitler, Mussulini, Stalin, Emperor Hiro Heto, and Franco, with the very occasional chapters from the undersecretary of War for the US and the young Prince of Wales. Sure, there are some good people involved, but they are like a bucket of water in a sea of stories about bad people.

As I have said on another thread, I fully intend to read the rest of this series as it comes out, and I am starting to gain a better perspective on the series as I discuss it more. Nevertheless, the focus of the books is not on good people.

jdavis · Jan 26, 2003

I don't think the propblem is a lack of heroic characters, it's a lack of a single HERO of the story. It appears the main hero is Jon Snow, but he really is only in one third of the book. I figure eventually he will have to go south and get involved (I could be wrong though). Jon Snow is almost too goody and heroic to really fit in with the rest of the characters in the books.

I see Tyrion moving towards being a hero (a dark hero perhaps but heroic none the less). I also see Jamie Lannister moving towards some kind of attempt at redemption too. I am also sure Bran will pop up again as a possible heir to the North, he is a good character who is doing some heroic things.

I really am looking to see who shows up to be the actual Evil Villian of the story, there are several selfish and ruthless characters but there isn't really a Big Villian. It's a series full of co-stars and no actual leading roles. I love the series and it keeps me wanting more.

Sagan Darkside · Jan 26, 2003

jdavis said:
It's a series full of co-stars and no actual leading roles.

No. As in real life- they are all the main character in the story of their lives.

No main villians? The others.
No main heroes? Dany's prophecy.

The "no hero" complaint is less annoying then those that cheer for the alleged moral ambiguity of the characters of the book. Beyond what I think it says about those readers, I think it is nonsense. It is pretty easy draw a line on most characters on the book.

SD

jdavis · Jan 26, 2003

Sagan Darkside said:
No. As in real life- they are all the main character in the story of their lives.

No main villians? The others.
No main heroes? Dany's prophecy.

SD

Yes they are the main characters in their own little bits of the story, but they are not in the whole story, there is no stand up main character, that's not nessessarily a bad thing but it can be disconserting to people who are used to there being a main character in books (you know like almost every book ever written). As in real life? They live in a fantasy world in a fantasy book, it is a fantasy book with a new and refreshing take on fantasy books, it is a fantasy book without a lead hero or villian (as of yet) but it still is a fantasy book. I'm the main character in the story of my life too.

The Others will probably turn out to be major villians eventually, but have we actually seen anything about them, do we have a clue what they want or what they are up too? Have they appeared more than a handful of times on in less than a dozen pages? 90% of the characters in the book don't even have a clue what is going on in the north, or care for that matter. Yes they will be main villians eventually but they are just a side story right now.

Dany? She has yet to interact with the vast majority of the characters, she isn't even on the same continent yet, yes she will become a hub for this story eventually, but right now she doesn't affect anything in the book outside of her part of the story, at least Jon Snow has met several of the main characters, most of the people in the book don't know Dany is even alive. Not to mention she really isn't all that heroic.

I am very excited to start seeing all the different stories being drawn together, but that is in the future of the books, right now it is just a collection of tales from the same fantasy world. There is no stand out main character as of yet (once again that is not a bad thing at all).

You compare it to real life and then say that there is no moral ambiguity in the characters? Well are they full rounded real characters or are they definite good and evil stereotypes, you can't have it both ways.

Dark Psion · Jan 27, 2003

I've never read these books, can you give me an description of them?

jdavis · Jan 27, 2003

Dark Psion said:
I've never read these books, can you give me an description of them?

They are three (large) books into the story, it is very good and fairly intense. Here is a link to some summaries and reviews:
http://www.sffworld.com/authors/m/martin_george/reviews/asongoficeandfire.html

Sagan Darkside · Jan 27, 2003

jdavis said:
You compare it to real life and then say that there is no moral ambiguity in
the characters? Well are they full rounded real characters or are they
definite good and evil stereotypes, you can't have it both ways.

Err, because I don't see the choice being one or the other.

Oh, heck, I don't believe in moral ambiguity. I believe in good and evil. There is no rule that suggests that people that are either are simple or stereotypical.

SD

jdavis · Jan 27, 2003

Sagan Darkside said:
Err, because I don't see the choice being one or the other.

Oh, heck, I don't believe in moral ambiguity. I believe in good and evil. There is no rule that suggests that people that are either are simple or stereotypical.

SD

Most fantasy book characters just are not that deep, it's what makes people question them being heroes or not in these books, they are not used to overly deep characters who can be good but sometimes do bad things, like in real life. This series has a lot of "mostly good" or "trying to be good" characters. Was the hound a hero or a villian? he did thing throughout the books to make him seem to be both at different times. He really didn't fit a mold at all, and I really didn't see him change all that much he was always a mess inside. You don't get that in a lot of fantasy books, this isn't a series where the good guys wear white hats and the bad guys wear black hats. Jamie was a major villian in the first two books but is now swinging the other way, who knows how he will be viewed by the end of the series. Look at all the evil things Stannis has done so far but he really isn't a villian at all.