A problem with D&D that's not really a problem (minor rant)

EarthsShadow · Feb 2, 2003

Does anybody else think that in order to have a really good character you have to really plan ahead, sometimes to the point of having your first five to eight levels planned out? For some reason this just strikes me as wrong. I understand that to get a prestige class one must plan ahead, but in reality (I know we are talking about a game) people and characters wouldn't be set up like that, right?

This is one of the things about 3e that bug me, that many people don't allow their characters to develop naturally but force them in a certain direction to achieve getting a Prestige class that probably wouldn't make sense based on what the character experiences as he/she gains levels and goes on adventures.

The main reason why I bring this up is that I see this kind of steam rolling of characters in games so much that it sucks out some of the natural possibilities of change that can incur, and another is that players railroad their own characters to act in certain ways or pick things that might not make sense to gain something that is just more powerful.

I am just wondering if anybody else sees this happening in some of their games.

Methinkus · Feb 2, 2003

Oh im sure we've all seen this at least once, and 3e can be said to encourage this kind of meta-game-thinking but at the same time the opposite is also present in many games.

I think that a basic factor in what your describing is how involved the players are in the world vs how involved they are in their characters. Those who want there characters to flow within the plot and motivate the story would be more likely to let their character evolve based on what happens in the campaign whereas those who are more interested in a "killer" concept for a character that they would really enjoy roleplaying in most any setting are more likely to plan out the character in the way you describe, but its not always nessicarily a Power Gamer thing.

the temptation to go for Uber is strong in 3e indeed, but others chose to Role along anyway as they always have

I bet this didnt help at all, but then again its 3:18 in the AM so if you dont apreciate my post, forget you.

Chauzu · Feb 2, 2003

I've seen this too, and I also don't like it. I always have my characters develop naturally. If my fighter has been fighting a lot in the wilderness, I will choose either another level of fighter or I will multiclass into a ranger. If my rogue just leveled up and wants to learn magic, I make him take another level of rogue but study magic in the meantime so that maybe he can become a wizard the next time he levels. It's the only roleplaying way I can see it.

Zappo · Feb 2, 2003

EarthsShadow said:
Does anybody else think that in order to have a really good character you have to really plan ahead, sometimes to the point of having your first five to eight levels planned out?

That's true for about everything complex, not just D&D characters. Bridges, skyscrapers, computers, programs, games, novels, parties, meals, whatever. Anything you can do, you can do better and faster by planning it, save for very simple things.

In any case, you can do effective (ie, worth their CR) characters without planning them. They won't be real munchkins, though. All the same, you can take prestige classes without planning in advance; only, you'll probably get them at 8th level instead of 5th and maybe it won't be the PrC you were thinking about.

shilsen · Feb 2, 2003

EarthsShadow said:
Does anybody else think that in order to have a really good character you have to really plan ahead, sometimes to the point of having your first five to eight levels planned out?

I don't think this is the case. In one of my group's campaigns, I started out with a rgr/rog who I'd planned to have be a finessed shortsword fighter. But over the course of a couple of levels, he ended up using a bow more often than not, so I thought it would be more appropriate to the character to stick to archery, and gradually developed in that direction. Maybe he'd have been a better archer if I went with a fighter (or, of course, a cleric

) starting out, but he's pretty effective as is. The same is true for a couple other PCs in theparty. They aren't as totally munchkinized as could be, if the player had planned ten levels in advance, but they're all powerful characters as is.

National Acrobat · Feb 2, 2003

I suppose this is true and I fixed it with the group that I run, rather heavy handed most would say, but I do it by limiting the Prestige Classes available. I do not own all of the splat books (all of my players seem to own everything) and of the ones that I own, I have not approved everything (that inlcludes the endless supply of new feats, skills, domains, spells, etc). Plus, I make the players give me a role-playing reason as to why they would gravitate to that class and then I tie in a gaming event or occurence that would get them the knowledge, contacts, etc. that they would need. It makes it a bit tougher to achieve the goals and it puts it in the role playing context.

Wormwood · Feb 2, 2003

Every time I make a new character, I plan out my Class/Skill/Feat paths for the next ten or so levels. I do this partly to qualify for any PrC's I would like to try, and partly to ensure that my character is efficient enough that I wont end up wasting my playing time being dead or twiddling my thumbs.

It's just as creative to devise an effective Feat/Class combo as it is to write a two page story about your character's childhood.

BryonD · Feb 2, 2003

To me a big part of the fun of fantasy role-playing is getting to be a specific character that fits a specific model.

Unlike real life, you can always switch characters if you want to go a different direction.

So what you are calling a problem, I call "one of the good things about D&D."

Apok · Feb 2, 2003

I honestly do not see this as a problem. As Zappo pointed out, anyone who is familiar with project management or system analysis & design principles knows that 70% of all projects fail due to poor planning. Better planning will always yield a better result.

I think the problem is that when someone plans out their character development in this way, the "true roleplayers" start screaming their heads off and whining about "powergaming" and "rampant munchkinism." Well, quite frankly, I'm tired of justifying my actions to these whiny little drama-club reject wannabe actors. I'm making a character that will actually do well in dire circumstances and be fun to roleplay as well. Forgive me if my background history isn't reminicient of a fledgeling novel and that I don't invest 20 minutes of game time describing what kind of cheese my character likes with his mead. I'm all for good roleplaying, but give it a bloody rest, will ya?!

Ahem. Excuse me, while I go work off some of this excess anger...

MarauderX · Feb 2, 2003

I gotta agree with you, EarthShadow, just because a campaign will morph a character along the way, as different settings will push which direction a character wishes to go. I run a lot of urban campaigns, and because of the interlaced adventures that kept occuring one after another the rogue player that was going to multiclass with ranger decided against it. The whole "urban ranger" thing popped up, but in the end the point was moot as he gave up trying to make a character he wanted, versus one that would fit the campaign setting and help the party the most.

Not that I didn't allow him, I let him ask the questions about his character like 'Has he ever set foot in the forest before?'

Ultimately it is up to the players, and some of them will want to pursue a PrC with a vengence and meticulously plan it out from 1st level. I try to encourage new PrCs for players that don't do that, and let them flesh out the details - with my approval, of course. For those PrCs in the DMG, dungeon, etc., if you don't qualify, you don't qualify. But so what, make something a little similiar and more importantly, unique.

A problem with D&D that's not really a problem (minor rant)

EarthsShadow

First Post

Methinkus

First Post

Chauzu

First Post

Zappo

Explorer

shilsen

Adventurer

National Acrobat

First Post

Wormwood

Adventurer

BryonD

Hero

Apok

First Post

MarauderX

Explorer

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