D&D 5E 5e fey knight

Hi everyone,

I'm working on building a new 14th level PC for my group's ongoing campaign (a 5e Age of Worms conversion). I'm going to make her a half-elf paladin with the Oath of the Ancients subclass and the Sentinel and Shield Master feats. I'm also considering MCing into bard and/or fighter as well for some extra versatility and the like. Bard synergizes extremely well with the oath's focus on nurturing and preserving beauty and art and such. Fighter is for extra tanking power.

I'd like 5 levels of bard, mainly for the boosted Bardic Inspiration (d8 and short rest), 4 extra skills, Jack of All Trades (which I understand applies to Initiative!), and Cutting Words. The spells are extraneous, although there are some potentially fun ones (like Tasha's hideous laughter). If there was a way I could get all the bard goodies without having to take all the spells too, I'd go with that.

In terms of fighter, I could just go with one level to get a second fighting style (so I can have both Defense and Dueling). Action Surge could potentially be nice too. At level 3, I could get either Improved Critical or some maneuvers (although I think the latter might make this character a little too complicated). If I were to go all the way to level 6, I'd also be able to get the standard 5 ASI/feat slots; otherwise I'm stuck with only getting 4. EDIT: I'd most likely only start with one level of fighter, though, and take more levels later if needed.

The trouble with going with 5 levels of bard and 6 levels of fighter is that I'd be limited to only 9 levels of paladin in total, which would mean missing out on Aura of Courage. [My last PC kept failing her Wis saves to resist being frightened, so being immune to fear sure would be nice!]


In terms of magic items, I'd love a sentinel shield and a cloak of protection. Both of those are uncommon, so ordinarily they'd be all but guaranteed. However, the DM says I can have a moonblade, which is a legendary item. He may say that I can only have that one item. He's on holiday at the moment, so I'll have to wait another week or so to know for sure. I love the fluff behind the moonblade - my character concept involves her inheriting a mostly meaningless noble title when the last true heirs die [think Phryne Fisher from Miss Fisher's Murder Mysteries]. Part of the inheritance includes the moonblade. I've asked that it at least have the finesse property, although I also really like the look of the elfshadow summoning ability.

For the record, I rolled the following for my stats: 10 11 12 14 16 17.

I'm thinking STR 13 DEX 18 CON 16 14 INT 10 WIS 11 CHA 16 18 (half-elf: +1 Str, +1 Dex, +2 Cha)

In addition to Sentinel and Shield Master, I'll probably bump Dex to 20 at some point and pick up Inspiring Leader. Unless I go 6 levels of fighter, that'll be it for my ASI/feat slots.

Even though I'm going with Dex, I'm also looking at trying to get mithril plate armor [so I can ignore the Str requirement and the disadvantage to Stealth], as that still gets me the best AC:

Studded leather (12) + shield (2) + 20 Dex (5) + Defense (1) = AC 20
Plate (18) + shield (2) + Defense (1) = AC 21

I'd need +1 studded leather to match what plate gets me, but that's a rare item, and I doubt the DM will say yes to that (see above). The other PCs in the group all have ACs of at least 20, with the highest being the dwarf cleric with dwarven plate who has an AC of 22. I'd love to have an AC at least that high too, since I'm going for a defender role in combat. [For the record, the party consists of a wood elf shadow monk, a human evoker wizard, a dragonborn moon druid, and a hill dwarf tempest cleric.]

What do you guys think? Any suggestions?

First off, you will probably get a better response the the char op forum, and this should be moved there.

There's a lot here, and it seems that you are not just MCing for "extra versatility and the like". Nevertheless, here you go:

Almost none of this is about being a paladin. If you see that as the main class, decide how much paladin you need at a minimum. You've said 10 levels for Aura of Courage. If that's what you feel you need, then you're only playing with 4 other levels anyways, which makes your choice much easier. For me, it's 6 or 7 levels: Aura of Protection gives you your Cha bonus to all saves (huge) and Aura of Warding gives you resistance to spells (also huge). If you stopped at either of these points, you'd have 7 or 8 levels to play with.

pukunui said:

Hi everyone,

I'm working on building a new 14th level PC for my group's ongoing Age of Worms campaign. I'm going to make her a half-elf paladin with the Oath of the Ancients subclass and the Sentinel and Shield Master feats. I'm also considering MCing into bard and/or fighter as well for some extra versatility and the like. Bard synergizes extremely well with the oath's focus on nurturing and preserving beauty and art and such. Fighter is for extra tanking power.

I'd like 5 levels of bard, mainly for the boosted Bardic Inspiration (d8 and short rest), 4 extra skills, Jack of All Trades (which I understand applies to Initiative!), and Cutting Words. The spells are extraneous, although there are some potentially fun ones (like Tasha's hideous laughter). If there was a way I could get all the bard goodies without having to take all the spells too, I'd go with that.

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Well, first off: it's 1 extra skill, not 4.

But 5 levels of Bard would be good for the build you describe.
If you went with 10 Paladin, though, you'd be just as fine with 4, stopping at the ability boost.

In terms of fighter, I could just go with one level to get a second fighting style (so I can have both Defense and Dueling). Action Surge could potentially be nice too. At level 3, I could get either Improved Critical or some maneuvers (although I think the latter might make this character a little too complicated). If I were to go all the way to level 6, I'd also be able to get the standard 5 ASI/feat slots; otherwise I'm stuck with only getting 4.

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This I understand less. The big perk in pushing through the fighter levels is to get the extra attack at 5, but you will have that already with Paladin and you don't get it twice.

Honestly, I can see the case for a dip of 1, 2, 3, or 4 levels (fighting style, action surge, maneuvers, ability boost), but I'd not suggest going to 5 or 6.

The trouble with going with 5 levels of bard and 6 levels of fighter is that I'd be limited to only 9 levels of paladin, which would mean missing out on Aura of Courage. [My last PC kept failing her Wis saves to resist being frightened, so being immune to fear sure would be nice!]

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If you've got Aura of Protection, then your Wis save is already pretty solid. As a Paladin, you've got proficient with Wis saves anyways. If you're so concerned about this specifically, maybe consider being a halfling!

In terms of magic items, I'd love a sentinel shield and a cloak of protection. Both of those are uncommon, so ordinarily they'd be all but guaranteed. However, the DM says I can have a moonblade, which is a legendary item. He may say that I can only have that one item. He's on holiday at the moment, so I'll have to wait another week or so to know for sure. I love the fluff behind the moonblade - my character concept involves her inheriting a mostly meaningless noble title when the last true heirs die [think Phryne Fisher from Miss Fisher's Murder Mysteries]. Part of the inheritance includes the moonblade. I've asked that it at least have the finesse property, although I also really like the look of the elfshadow summoning ability.

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Take the cool sword and say thank you.

For the record, I rolled the following for my stats: 10 11 12 14 16 17.

I'm thinking STR 13 DEX 18 CON 16 INT 10 WIS 11 CHA 16 (half-elf: +1 Str, +1 Dex, +2 Cha)

That being said, which would be better: the extra 14 hit points from having a 16 Con, or the extra +1 to Cha checks, spell save DCs, and uses of various bard/paladin abilities from having an 18 Cha? I can't decide.

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You have the opportunity to start with two 18s. Do that. 14 Con is fine.

What do you guys think? Any suggestions?

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I'll stop there -- you see ways to boost your AC and either you'll have the items or you won't. There are so many variables right now, it's hard to keep track. You have chosen two spell casting classes, and you seem uninterested in the spells. That too will give you a lot to play with.

But of the possibilities:
Pal 10/Bard 4
Pal 6/Bard 5/Fighter 3
Pal 7/Bard 5/Fighter2
Pal 7/Bard 7
Pal 6/Bard 8

I'd choose one of the last two, with the intention of levelling to 8/8 for the ability bonuses.

What Kobold Stew said. I would skip fighter. I would put the 10 in STR, since other than attack/damage you get more mileage from any other stat - and you are using DEX for attacking/damage. I would skip the heavy armor and rely on DEX for defense.

That also lets you put the 12 in Wis, giving you a bonus to that save.

Kobold Stew said:

First off, you will probably get a better response the the char op forum, and this should be moved there.

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My bad. I didn't realize the char op forum was open to 5e.

There's a lot here, and it seems that you are not just MCing for "extra versatility and the like".

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I don't follow you.

Almost none of this is about being a paladin. If you see that as the main class, decide how much paladin you need at a minimum. You've said 10 levels for Aura of Courage. If that's what you feel you need, then you're only playing with 4 other levels anyways, which makes your choice much easier. For me, it's 6 or 7 levels: Aura of Protection gives you your Cha bonus to all saves (huge) and Aura of Warding gives you resistance to spells (also huge). If you stopped at either of these points, you'd have 7 or 8 levels to play with.

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I feel I need 10 levels over the course of 20. I'm OK with starting with 8 or 9, though. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Well, first off: it's 1 extra skill, not 4.

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Lore bard gets me another 3 skills on top of the one I get when I MC into bard, for a total of 4.

But 5 levels of Bard would be good for the build you describe.
If you went with 10 Paladin, though, you'd be just as fine with 4, stopping at the ability boost.

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I wouldn't get the boost to Bardic Inspiration, but I could always pick that up later.

This I understand less. The big perk in pushing through the fighter levels is to get the extra attack at 5, but you will have that already with Paladin and you don't get it twice.

Honestly, I can see the case for a dip of 1, 2, 3, or 4 levels (fighting style, action surge, maneuvers, ability boost), but I'd not suggest going to 5 or 6.

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The only reason for going to level 6 in fighter is to get a fifth ASI/feat slot. And I don't need to start with that many levels of fighter either. I could pick them up later, closer to 20th level. One level of fighter would be to get a second fighting style. I could also potentially start as a fighter to get proficiency in Con saves instead of Wis. Not sure which would be better overall.

If you've got Aura of Protection, then your Wis save is already pretty solid. As a Paladin, you've got proficient with Wis saves anyways.

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True.

You have the opportunity to start with two 18s. Do that. 14 Con is fine.

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OK. Thanks.

I'll stop there -- you see ways to boost your AC and either you'll have the items or you won't. There are so many variables right now, it's hard to keep track. You have chosen two spell casting classes, and you seem uninterested in the spells. That too will give you a lot to play with.

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I know. I probably should've waited until I heard back from the DM, eh? :/

Thyrwyn said:

What Kobold Stew said. I would skip fighter. I would put the 10 in STR, since other than attack/damage you get more mileage from any other stat - and you are using DEX for attacking/damage. I would skip the heavy armor and rely on DEX for defense.

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Unfortunately I have to have a 13 in STR in order to multiclass as a paladin. Also, even with a maxed out Dex, heavy armor still gets me a better AC overall.

pukunui said:

Lore bard gets me another 3 skills on top of the one I get when I MC into bard, for a total of 4.

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Right you are -- my bad.

Kobold Stew said:

Right you are -- my bad.

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No worries. My main goal with this character is to make a tough warrior who is good at defending her allies (several of whom can have an "every man for himself" attitude at times, especially the monk who's got a cursed evil dagger) while at the same time being able to contribute meaningfully outside of combat.

Since a moonblade can only be used by a neutral good elf or half-elf, I thought it would be fun to take that and run with it, hence the Oath of the Ancients paladin base. That oath is all about defending art and beauty and so on, and the moonblade expects its wielder to champion elven ideals such as courage, art, music, etc. All that fluff says "bard" to me, which is part of the reason I want to MC into that class. The other reason is that I just like multiclassing, and I like playing highly skilled characters on top of that. I usually play sneaky rogue types, though, so this will be a bit of a departure for me. I also think the lore bard's Cutting Words ability suits this character nicely, even if it does compete with Sentinel and Shield Master for my reaction.

Adding in some fighter is mainly to get a second fighting style slot so I can have both Defense and Dueling. Action Surge could potentially be nice too. I'm thinking I could start with paladin 8 / bard 5 / fighter 1. I'll then see how I can get and take levels accordingly. A sixth level of bard could net some fun stuff via Additional Magical Secrets (conjure animals would be thematically appropriate). If I stuck with 6 levels of bard and 1 level of fighter, that would leave me with 13 levels of paladin. That's not bad. Even bard 6 / fighter 2 / paladin 12 would be all right, as I'd still get 4 ASI/feat slots.

I've got to make a case for multiclassing into Warlock. Fey Patron Chain Pact Warlock is such a flavorful match with an Ancients Oath paladin. You Oath is not just to "Ancients" in general; it's also a Pact to a specific Faerie King. Just double down on that Green Knight vibe, and rock that Pseudodragon familiar with style. Dump dex and go with an 18 Str / 18 Cha Sean-Connery-In-Sword-of-the-Valiant badass in full plate. Your party will appreciate your Cure Wounds twice per short rest (cast as 4th level spells if you do 7/7, or as 2nd level spells if you do 10/4).

Another option is to go Paladin 7 / Ranger 7. Downside is that it cost you your 14 Con. Upside is you get your second style, Cha bonus to saves, resistance to damage from spells, advantage on saves vs fear, and your choice of Hunter style (Giant Killer combos very well with Sentinel, though it's campaign-dependent / you need to expect to fight a LOT of Large creatures).

A note on Shield Master: don't take this unless you go the Bard route, and put Expertise in Athletics. Because that bonus action Shove is a Str (Athletics) check. If you've only got a 13 Str you're not going to win those very often. But speaking of shields: I sure like Protection style on this guy. Fits your self-described vibe of "preserving" and "defending." a

Zaruthustran said:

I've got to make a case for multiclassing into Warlock.

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I considered warlock, but it doesn't really do it for me in this case. I had trouble finding spells I wanted to pick, for one thing.

The sentinel shield was the original inspiration for this character (not the moonblade). Advantage on both Initiative and Perception checks sounded fun (especially since the latter translates to a flat +5 on passive Perception). Then I started thinking that it might be useful to boost my Initiative modifier on top of the advantage, which is why I decided to go Dex-based. I had originally planned to go with 7 levels of fighter to get Remarkable Athlete to boost my Initiative, but then I found out that the bard's Jack of All Trades has the same effect (albeit rounded down rather than up), and I really like the idea of helping my allies out via Cutting Words, which is why I chose bard.

I just wish there was a way I could get the bard's class abilities without all the spells. I don't really want any cantrips. I guess the extra spell slots will be nice for smiting, but I dunno ... the paladin's spells mainly work in conjunction with the paladin's melee attacks and such, whereas with the bard's spells, I'm mainly going to be choosing to use them instead of making a melee attack - or else I'll only be using them outside of combat.

Another option is to go Paladin 7 / Ranger 7.

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Not a bad combo. Certainly fits the outdoorsy theme. That being said, I'm not sure I want to go ranger again as the PC I'm replacing is a ranger/rogue. TBH, I think the best fit thematically would be druid, but that's not really a plausible option with the stats I rolled unfortunately.

A note on Shield Master: don't take this unless you go the Bard route, and put Expertise in Athletics. Because that bonus action Shove is a Str (Athletics) check. If you've only got a 13 Str you're not going to win those very often.

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I'm aware of that. I am taking Shield Master more for the other two bennies really.

But speaking of shields: I sure like Protection style on this guy. Fits your self-described vibe of "preserving" and "defending." a

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I thought about it. I doubt any of the other PCs will want to stay within 5 feet, though, unfortunately.

If Cutting Words is your thing, then yeah you have to go Bard. And take at least 5 levels, to get Font of Inspiration. Cutting Words 4/day is good, but 4/short rest is amazing.

In that case I suggest you go with what Kobold Stew offered: Fighter 2 / Pal 7 / Bard 5. If you want to mainline Paladin and don't like Bard spells then there's no reason to go past Bard 5. Paladin 7 gets you the most important features. And those two fighter levels get you a lot: a fighting style, second wind, and action surge. Next level offers a good choice in Pal 8 (for the abi) or Fighter 3 (for Battle Master maneuvers or improved crit range).