[MnM] Help! Questions as I build characters....

Piratecat · Feb 11, 2003

A few observations and stupid questions, as I build Mutants & Mastermind characters.

- Lets say you want to purchase the Weapon +10 power, with the device flaw. Can you give this weapon (lets say it's a high-tech boomerang) something like just +1 power level of the snare power, or does it also have to be +10? How many PP would this end up costing?

- It seems to me that at any given power level, energy blast attacks (which max out at your PL, or usually +10) can always do a whole lot less damage than melee attacks, as melee attacks can use powers which stack with one another. Thus, for heroes of the same power level, Blasty McBlaster would max out at +10 dmg (energy blast +10), while Hitty McHithit could max out at +25 or so (+5 strength, +10 superstrength, +10 strike.) Am I missing something? This seems wrong to me.

- Is it just me, or on the pre-gen PC templates in the front does it not say anywhere how much damage these guys do with an attack?

- Am I correct that the Damage Save is the most important stat in the game?

Thanks for any insight or advice!

Yellow Sign · Feb 11, 2003

Ok, let me see if I can help!

1. Yes you can sort of stack effects together. But it's Really up to the GM. Say you want a attack that has a Energy Blast and Dazzle combined in the attack. Say your a 10 level character, then you could have a combination of Energy Blast and Dazzle of up to a total of +10 in a single attack. Example Energy Blast +5 and Dazzle +5. Cost wise you would link the powers so that any drains or neutralizations would affect both powers at once. You would buy the highest power at full price and the lower valued power at cost -1 per level. Together with a device flaw it would look like this.

Energy Blast +5 Cost 2-1 for Device per = 5 points
Dazzle +5 Cost 2-1 for link and -1 for Device with a minimum of 1 =5 points.
Total 5+5=10 points.

2. You cannot stack powers together over the characters level limit. For a 10th level character with +5 STR bonus, +10 Strike, and +10 Super Strength, his hand to hand damage would be +15 max. While Energy Blast does not stack with STR it gets the advantage of being a ranged attack. Though if a super villian neutralized the hero's Super Strength to 0 he still would do +15 damage (STR +5 and +10 Strike)

3. Nope they don't. You have to figure them out from their powers and stats.

4. Well its pretty important. Though I have a martial artist with a high Defense compared to a lower damage save.

Piratecat · Feb 11, 2003

You're great to help me on this. Thank you.

Yellow Sign said:
2. You cannot stack powers together over the characters level limit. For a 10th level character with +5 STR bonus, +10 Strike, and +10 Super Strength, his hand to hand damage would be +15 max. While Energy Blast does not stack with STR it gets the advantage of being a ranged attack. Though if a super villian neutralized the hero's Super Strength to 0 he still would do +15 damage (STR +5 and +10 Strike)

You sure on this - and if so, can you cite a page reference? The strike power specifically doesn't stack with Natural Weapon (and one other), but I can't find anything to say that it doesn't stack with super-strength - and I specifically went a-hunting such a reference. Or does this simply fall under the "all powers must not exceed PL" rule... but if so, then why does Strike specifically have a rule as to what it doesn't stack with?

Too confusing. Hulk SMASH!

Voneth · Feb 11, 2003

Piratecat said:
A few observations and stupid questions, as I build Mutants & Mastermind characters.

Lets say you want to purchase the Weapon +10 power, with the device flaw.

The Weapon Power already has the device flaw. "By it's nature, this power has the Device flaw, which has been factored into its cost."

In addition to that, no power can be reduced to less than 1 PP/Level (Weapon already costs 1 pp/level.)

Piratecat said:
Can you give this weapon (lets say it's a high-tech boomerang) something like just +1 power level of the snare power, or does it also have to be +10?

You can have disparate costs between a power and its extras. The only hard rule is that the highest-level power has to be the base power that the extras are attached to. Depending on the concept and design, this sometimes means that you end up with things rules wise that are not the “reality” of the device For example, rule wise you may end up with power armor that is focused on the powerful arm blaster instead of the armored chassis, while the “reality” of the gameworld is that the blaster is minor part of the suit.

Piratecat said:
It seems to me that at any given power level, energy blast attacks (which max out at your PL, or usually +10) can always do a whole lot less damage than melee attacks, as melee attacks can use powers which stack with one

Your PCs Power Level is the max number of levels that can stack, Super strength (And Amazing Save for that matter) are considered powers. The real key to success is in the feats, which stack above and beyond powers.

Piratecat said:
Or does this simply fall under the "all powers must not exceed PL" rule... but if so, then why does Strike specifically have a rule as to what it doesn't stack with?

That is why all three, Strike, Natural Weapon, and Weapon mention that they don’t stack with each other, because by regular MnM rules, you would assume they do. Evidently it’s a game balance thing.

Piratecat said:
Am I correct that the Damage Save is the most important stat in the game?

Most PCs on the templates and in my games (which has some min/maxers) have surprising low DS scores. Between the d20 rolls and Hero Points, it seems that PC go down sooner, but the often recover enough to be back in the action next round, sort of like a … comic book. You have to tweak the system a little if you want a more “realistic” approach.

MnM_UH · Feb 11, 2003

Stacking and PL Limits

This is an issue Green Ronin really needs to address in a supplement or errata.

Here's how I see stacking and PL limits. Your maximum effect from any combination of powers is your PL. Thus, Strike + Super-Strength cannot combine for more of a damage bonus than your PL. Your normal STR does not count for this limitation, though at most it would add +5. The same is true for things like Mental Defense + Amazing Save Will + Super-Wisdom or Super-Dexterity + Super-Speed + Amazing Save Reflex. Note that for the two examples I gave, you could add your normal WIS or DEX bonuses on top of those powers, as well as Iron Will or Lightning Reflexes, for a maximum non-powered bonus of +7.

This does not change adding a flaw to the equation, so your Device would just be considered a power. Let's say your PL 10 character has STR 18 (+4), and you bought Super-Strength +5. The maximum effective bonus for a Sword (Device with a Strike effect) would be +5, since that would stack with Super-Strength for the purposes of damage bonus. You could have a higher bonus for the sword, but it would be useless above +5 for this character (now if someone else happened to pick up the sword...) Anyway, your total damage bonus for this character with the aforementioned sword would be +14, or a Damage Save DC of 29.

You're right about Energy Blast and other ranged powers having inherently less potential for damage than a melee attack. There are a few mitigating factors, however. First, you can add things like Point Blank Shot to the equation. Second, blasters typically attack from far away, so they would be effectively out of the range of a melee monster.

There are so many different combinations of powers that can be applied to a potential character that it's hard to say X is underpowered, since it's the combination of powers and abilities that creates a character. One character with a certain combination of powers might completely dominate another character of the exact same PL with a different combination of powers.

MnM_UH · Feb 11, 2003

Variable Effects & Creating Powers

Varying the ranks of your effects is easy. First, determine the highest rank(s) of the effects involved. Strike is an effect, as is Snare. If all of the base effects cost 2 PP/Rank, then you take the highest ranked power, multiply the ranks by 2, and then add the number of ranks for the lesser-ranked effects. After all that, you would add the Device flaw based on the highest-ranked effect. For example, your Boomerang (Ranged Strike effect, Snare effect) could have Strike +7 and Snare +5, and would cost (7*2)+(5)-(7) = 12 PP.

It's not that much more complicated with effects that cost more than 2 PP/Rank. Let's say you want a power that includes Mental Blast (3 PP/Rank) and Paralysis (2 PP/Rank). Determine the highest-ranked power and follow the process as above. Let's say Mentos is buying this power as Breakdown (Mental Blast effect, Paralysis effect), and it is bought as follows: Mental Blast +6 and Paralysis +4. Mental Blast must be bought as 3 PP/Rank since it is the highest-ranked effect. So, the cost for this power would be (6*3)+(4) = 22 PP. If Mentos wanted to base this power on Paralysis, and turn it around to Paralysis +6 and Mental Blast +4, the cost would be (6*2)+(4*2) = 20 PP.

The rules for creating powers are listed on p. 92-94 of the M&M book.

coyote6 · Feb 11, 2003

Yeah, Strike & Super-Strength don't stack. However, since regular Strength does stack with the various melee powers, you are right that they will often have higher damage bonuses than ranged attacks. That's still fine, IMO.

For one, in comic books the strong guys tend to deliver more damage than the blaster types. Secondly, and from a game balance POV, more importantly -- ranged attacks are RANGED. When you add Flight, being able to pelt a foe from a distance is quite a nifty advantage.

BTW, Piratecat, you might want to check out Green Ronin's M&M forum -- Steve Kenson, Erik Mona, & co. answer questions, as their schedules allow.

GR is working on a FAQ & errata, which should be out in the next couple of weeks, AFAIK.