Class revisions

Merlion

First Post
Hey all. I want to get some opnions on some things. We know that 3.5 is going to alter the Ranger Druid Bard and Monk classes. We all(or at least many of us) know the ranger needs work..and most of us probably largely agree on what he needs. Of the other three classes I'd like peoples opnions on what they thinked should be changed, AND what they think WILL be changed.

Thanks :D
 

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FreeTheSlaves

Adventurer
No idea what will be changed.

What should be on the other hand...

Paladins should have more smites, better spell list, expanded mount options and general options for the highest levels (pre-epic). All this has to be done in a manner which does not unbalance them compared to fighters, so yes, this is asking a lot.

Rangers have already been lost to us, their abilities have been cannibalized by barbarians, druids and rogues. Ranger is now a role that anyone of the above can assume with skills and feats much like a diplomat, spy or knight.

Bards need to seriously carve out an identity. No class (thinking rogue here) should be able to compete with a bards social skills, so only the bard should have all social skills. The bards inspiration should have greater tangible effects, crowd control, cause riots, fear and all the emotions. Best to base it on bard level rather than perform ranks.
 

Merlion

First Post
Not bad ideas specialy about the bard.
I have to disagree on the ranger...Monte Cooks variant ranger is what I think of a ranger as history/literature wise and it sounds like the 3.5 ranger is essentialy going to be a copy thereof.
Interesting point on paladins. Yea they should have a smite progression. Hopefuly there spell list will be improved in the tune ups.
I agree wholeheartdly on bards and I think we're going to see it done.
Any thoughts on the monk FTS?
 

Lord Rasputin

Explorer
Rangers, bards, monks

Monte Cook's ranger changed too much and wound up too powerful. I'd space out the bonus feats, and give options for them. Do you want a bowman ranger (which should be the default, common in fantasy writing), a two-weapon ranger (the current situation, Drizzt Do'Urden) or a mounted ranger (makes sense because rangers are good with animals, and it would be different)? I'd also consider upping their base skill points, but any more is too much, when you start comparing it to the fighter.

Bards: more skill points, since Perform is a necessity and pretty much a sink.

Monks: I'm playing one right now, so I await this eagerly. IMNSHO, ki strike +1 at 5th level, and an additional +1 every 5 levels thereafter. My monk is 4th level right now, and I can already feel the pain of not hitting monsters with DR.

Drop the stupid multiclassing rules on monks and paladins. I single-class anyways, but these are lame, lame, lame and not needed. Maybe move a few 1st level abilities up a level or two so you don't have the problem we now have with the ranger.
 

Merlion

First Post
I agree wholeheartdly on the monk thing...and thats exactly what I see them doing. I think they will gain the ability to bypass some of the material-based DR as well.
They've already said bards will be getting more skill points...presumably 6 base which is how my groups have done it anyway..and some more bardic music abilities and a spell list tweak...all great ideas.
I have to disagree on Monte's ranger being to powerful...he only gets a handful of bonus feats and the list is smaller than a fighters...I've you've already said the more skillpoints which I think was a must...only other he gave them is good Ref saves...which makes sense...and a spell progresion tweak so small you have to hunt to find it. and he reduced there hit die. Seems perfect to me.
Anything else you could see the monk getting/needing?
 

Merlion

First Post
Oh and PS
Amen to the no more idiot multiclassing rule thingy! they've essentialy done away with it in FR anyway and its really quite silly
 

Artoomis

First Post
I am most familair with Paladins, so I'll just comment on them.

They need some progression on smites. Perhaps one every 5 levels? Or even 6 levels.

The mount needs work. The way Magical Beast works for the mount needs to be clarifed. This simplest way to do this is simply make them a "Magical Beast" per the Monster's Manual with the added powers/features they get as the Paladin advances.

They also should advance more often.

The bonus to Natural AC needs to be clarified

My suggested version is (areas I changed are in bold italics). The gaining of the Celestial Template may seem like a bit much, but it gives a reason to stay pure Paladin to 20th level:

PALADIN'S MOUNT

The paladin's mount is different from a standard animal of its type in many ways. The standard mount for a Medium-size paladin is a warhorse, and the standard mount for a Small paladin is a warpony. A paladin's mount is a magical beast, not an animal. It has an alignment of LG. It is superior to a normal mount of its kind and has special powers, as shown below

Paladin.....Bonus.....Natural.....Str
Level........HD...........Armor.......Adj........Int.......Special
-------......-----........-------.......----........---.......-------
5–6..........+2.............4.............+1..........6......... Improved evasion, share spells, empathic link, share saving throws
7..............+3.............5.............+1..........6..........--
8–9..........+4.............6.............+2..........7..........--
10............+5.............7.............+2..........7..........--
11–12.......+6.............8.............+3..........8..........Command creatures of its kind
13-14.......+7.............9.............+4..........8..........--
15–19.......+8............10............+4..........9.........Spell resistance
20............+8............10............+4..........9.........Celestial


Paladin Level: The level of the paladin. If the mount suffers a level drain, treat it as a mount of a lower-level paladin.

Bonus HD: These are extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Remember that extra Hit Dice improve the mount's base attack and base save bonuses.

Natural Armor: The number listed here is an improvement to the mount's natural armor. It represents the preternatural toughness of a paladin's mount.

Str Adj.: Add this figure to the mount's Strength score.

Int: The mount's Intelligence score.

Improved Evasion: If the mount is subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, it takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw and half damage even if the saving throw fails. Improved evasion is an extraordinary ability.

Share Spells: At the paladin's option, the paladin may have any spell he or she casts on him or herself also affect her mount. The mount must be within 5 feet. If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, the spell stops affecting the mount if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the mount again even if the mount returns to the paladin before the duration expires. Additionally, the paladin may cast a spell with a target of "You" on the mount (as a touch range spell) instead of on herself. The paladin and the mount can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the mount's type.

Empathic Link: The paladin has an empathic link with the mount out to a distance of up to one mile. The paladin cannot see through the mount's eyes, but they can communicate telepathically. Even intelligent mounts see the world differently from humans, so misunderstandings are always possible. This is a supernatural ability.

Because of the empathic link between the mount and the paladin, the paladin has the same connection to an item or place that the mount does, just as a master and his familiar.

Share Saving Throws: The mount uses its own base saves or the paladin's, whichever is higher.

Command: The mount's command ability is a spell-like ability that it can use at will against other creatures of its kind with fewer Hit Dice than it has itself. The mount can use this ability once per day per two levels of its paladin, and the ability functions just like the spell command (for purposes of this spell, the mount can make itself be understood by any normal animal of its kind). Since this is a spell-like ability, the mount must make a Concentration check (DC 21) if it's being ridden at the time (as in combat). If the check fails, the ability does not work that time, but it still counts against the mount's daily uses.

Spell Resistance: The mount's spell resistance equals the paladin's level + 5.

Celestial. The mount becomes Celestial. The mount gains the "Celestail" template per the Monster Manual.
 

Merlion

First Post
I like the celestial part it only makes sense.
Interesting...I was looking mainly for comments on the classes we know they are going to change but many people seem to think Paladins need a little tweak. I do also agree with the more smites..probably 3-4 a day eventualy seems good...
 

Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
I think the Druid could do with more "bang" spells, especially elemental based ones. I also think that their almighty nature sense should be changed to "add class level to knowledge nature checks" rather than the existing invalidation of the skill. I also think that their trackless step ability should add their level to the DC of any attempts to track the druid rather than automatically nullifying the ranger ability as soon as you get to third level.

I think the Monk could benefit from some additional monk-themed feats which could be swapped for the deflect arrows and improved trip which they currently get; a defensive feat for 2nd level and an offensive feat for 6th. I also think the monk BAB should stack fully with fighter BAB. After doing the maths I don't believe that it makes any Ftr/Monk combination a killer solution which is better than a straight monk in all cases.

Regarding Rangers, I think that Monte's is a frankly useless attempt at improving the class. He doesn't really add anything to it, removes some of the aspects I consider important, identifies the biggest problem that it has (DM specific class ability) but then doesn't do anything about *that*! No, I dislike Monte's idea, which still doesn't have its clear role. I look forward to seeing what they do for 3.5e and have high hopes here.

I think the Bard needs more things that he can do with bardic music, more skill points and probably more oomph with his magic. At high levels the bard spell list really fizzles out. It should perhaps either get 9 levels of spell like the others (since it is a bit of an odd one out at the moment) or change the way that bardic music works altogether... I'd like that, but can't see them making such a substantial change.

Cheers
 


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