New Archer PrC presented for comments.

IndyPendant

First Post
With the meager list of applicable Feats in the PHB, if someone wanted to play a ranged specialist there isn't much to distinguish that character. I've always been unhappy with the Arcane Archer in the DMG, since it requires magic use, and 'wastes time' with abilities that are flashy but spread into magical use. Other archer-type Prestige Classes I've seen tend to have flashy bits as well, like shooting through five people in a line, or around corners, or through walls. I didn't want that with mine; I just wanted someone that does ranged attacks, and does them *very very well*. I think I've got that now, with this Prestige Class.
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Archer

Requirements:
Base Attack: +6
Feats: Precise Shot and Weapon Focus (Ranged Weapon)
Skills: Concentration (4 Ranks); Craft, Bowyer/Fletcher (9 Ranks) (Or similar for slings and crossbows.)

Class Features:
Hit Die: 1d8
BAB: As Cleric
‘Good’ Saves: Fort & Ref
Skill Points: 4+Int Mod
Class Skills: Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (Martial), Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Spot, Swim
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Light Armour, All Ranged Weapons (Not including thrown weapons.)

Level 1: Ranged BAB +1; Called Shot 1/day
Level 2: Magic Focus +1
Level 3: Improved Ranged Attacks
Level 4: Magic Focus +2
Level 5: Ranged BAB +2; Called Shot 2/day
Level 6: Magic Focus +3
Level 7: Greater Improved Ranged Attacks
Level 8: Magic Focus +4
Level 9: Ranged BAB +3; Called Shot 3/day
Level 10: Magic Focus +5

Ranged BAB: The Archer gains this bonus to his Base Attack Bonus with all ranged weapons (essentially, giving him a Fighter’s BAB with ranged weapons only.)

Magic Focus: Through his focus of concentration and willpower, whenever the archer fires a Masterwork nonmagical missile, it is treated in all respects as magical with the indicated bonus, including attack and damage rolls, what it can affect, etc etc. (This magical bonus applies only when the Archer uses the missile; for example, if someone picks up the arrow the Archer just shot and shoots it back, it is then just a Masterwork arrow once more.)

Called Shot: Similar to the Paladin’s Smite Evil ability; the listed number of times per day, the archer may attempt a Called Shot with one normal missile attack. He adds his Intelligence modifier (if positive) to his attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per Archer level. The target does *not* have to be within 30 feet, but he does have to be within the base range of the weapon, including modifiers like Far Shot. Called Shot is a supernatural ability.

Improved Ranged: The Archer does not provoke an Attack of Opportunity when making ranged attacks while being within an opponent’s melee threat range and even while being attacked; however all of the Archer’s attacks are then considered to be beyond the 30 foot range for the purpose of Feats and abilities that make this distinction, even if the Archer’s target is closer. For example, Precise Shot and Weapon Focus would not apply if the Archer were being threatened in melee while using a ranged weapon, nor would Sneak Attacks.

Greater Improved Ranged: As above, except all close-range Feats and modifiers can be applied as normal (so long as the Archer's target is within 30 feet.) Additionally, the Archer himself is considered to have a Threat Range of 10 feet for the purpose of Attacks of Opportunity.
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Please tell me what you think; comments are most welcome. Thanks.
 

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Technik4

First Post
Couple Points

This class seemed like a non-magic version of arcane archer (which granted you stated you wanted to make), which totally negates the arcane archer. Part of the prestige of AA is that you MUST be able to cast some spells, hence your arrows are automatically magical. Youve taken away the restriction, but kept the benefit.

Ranged BAB is interesting, but possibly irksome. Cleric BAB is +7 at level 10, so their BAB is 3 higher. Since you are giving d8 HD, why not give fighter BAB?

Called Shot is OK, not too powerful and can't be used too often.

Improved Ranged is good, gives a bonus but limits it.

Greater Improved Ranged is too powerful. First it negates something you gained 4 levels ago (the limit on feats and sneak attack being used at literally point-blank shot), and second it has no limits on the 10ft reach. I will quote the Silver Marches' Peerless Archer with their version of archer reach:

"Threaten- At 8th level a peerless archer gains the ability to threaten nearby areas with her bow as if she were wielding a melee weapon when wearing light armor or no armor. She loses this special ability when fighting in medium or heavy armor. Her bow functions as a reach weapon, threatening anything 10ft away ** but not immediately adjacent to her **. Any attacks of opportunity she receives because she threatens nearby areas are normal ranged attacks and these count against her maximum number of attacks of opportunity per round."

Ok, now for my version of your class (easiest way for me to sum up the changes).

Bullseye

Requirements:
Base Attack: +6
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Weapon Focus (Ranged Weapon)
Skills: Concentration (4 Ranks); Craft, Bowyer/Fletcher (9 Ranks) (Or similar for slings and crossbows.)

[I added Point blank shot because it is a prerequisite for Precise Shot. Additionally I would like to note that your prereqs are gunning for someone with a fighter BAB, what with a level 6 BAB restriction and a level 6 skill restriction)]

Class Features:
Hit Die: 1d8
BAB: As Fighter
‘Good’ Saves: Ref
Skill Points: 4+Int Mod
Class Skills: Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (Martial), Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Spot, Swim

[I changed the BAB to fighter. This renders the "Ranged BAB" ability unnecessary and seems right with what you are going for. I also got rid of the good fort, they are lightly armored archers, nothing about them suggests hardiness or "great fortitude". Your skill list is obviously weighted towards perception and stealth.]

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: none gained

[The prereqs should make sure that someone going for this class has the appropriate weapon(s) at her disposal. Becoming a better ranged specialist doesnt mean you know how all ranged weapons work. Most prcs are going towards this method lately, where you dont actually gain any prof unless it is intrinsic to the prc.]

Level 1: Called Shot 1/day
Level 2: Immediate Ranged Attacks
Level 3: Bonus Feat
Level 4: Called Shot 2/day
Level 5:
Level 6: Bonus Feat
Level 7: Called Shot 3/day
Level 8:
Level 9: Bonus Feat
Level 10: Threaten; Called Shot 4/day

Called Shot: Similar to the Paladin’s Smite Evil ability; the listed number of times per day, the archer may attempt a Called Shot with one normal missile attack. He adds his Intelligence modifier (if positive) to his attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per Archer level. The target does *not* have to be within 30 feet, but he does have to be within the base range of the weapon, including modifiers like Far Shot. Called Shot is a supernatural ability.

Immeditate Ranged Attacks: The Archer does not provoke an Attack of Opportunity when making ranged attacks while being within an opponent’s melee threat range and even while being attacked; however all of the Archer’s attacks are then considered to be beyond the 30 foot range for the purpose of Feats and abilities that make this distinction, even if the Archer’s target is closer. For example, Precise Shot and Weapon Focus would not apply if the Archer were being threatened in melee while using a ranged weapon, nor would Sneak Attacks.

Bonus Feat List: Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Far Shot, Rapid Shot, Dodge, Mobility, Ranged Expertise*, Improved Initiative, Run, Skill Focus (any skill on class skill list), Alertness. Others may be added at DMs discretion.

Threaten: The archer gains the ability to threaten nearby areas with her bow as if she were wielding a melee weapon when wearing light armor or no armor. She loses this special ability when fighting in medium or heavy armor. Her bow functions as a reach weapon, threatening anything 10ft away but not immediately adjacent to her. Any attacks of opportunity she receives because she threatens nearby areas are normal ranged attacks and these count against her maximum number of attacks of opportunity per round

[Obviously this is where we differ a lot. I dont think you should take Arcane Archer's bag, the magical arrows. I am changing Improved Ranged Attacks to a 2nd level ability (now called Immediate Ranged Attacks), with the Threaten ability of the peerless archer at level 10. Called Shot remains, which leaves a bit of a gap where Ranged BAB and Magic Focus were. Therefore I have added a few bonus feats which may be used to pick up further ranged attack goodness. For the final 2 "dry" levels you have a choice of what to add, though I would recommend leaving at least one level (probably the level 8) totally dry.]

In the final analysis you are equal to, but different from a fighter. Same BAB, lower hp, better skills, less feats (and more restrictive list), and a couple unique abilities, different but equal saves.

Finally I would direct you to check out Peerless Archer (FR Silver Marches) if you haven't already. It seems to be the class you want (sans magic arrows).

Technik
 

IndyPendant

First Post
Re: Couple Points

This class seemed like a non-magic version of arcane archer (which granted you stated you wanted to make), which totally negates the arcane archer. Part of the prestige of AA is that you MUST be able to cast some spells, hence your arrows are automatically magical. Youve taken away the restriction, but kept the benefit.

The restriction/benefit thing is partly intentional. I dislike the requirement of magic use of the AA; it 'dilutes' the combat ability in my mind. I disagree though that it totally negates the AA; one thing a *lot* of players like is flash. My Archer doesn't have flash; the AA has tons of it. The AA should still appeal to a lot of players; I just wanted to offer an alternate.

Ranged BAB is interesting, but possibly irksome. Cleric BAB is +7 at level 10, so their BAB is 3 higher. Since you are giving d8 HD, why not give fighter BAB?

I don't quite follow what you are saying here, but what I wanted to emphasize was the PrC's ability with ranged while sacrificing somewhat melee. Giving the Archer a blanket Fighter BAB doesn't differentiate enough between Melee and Ranged in my mind--and I don't think it would be that hard to keep track of, considering that people must also keep track of things like stat mods (Dex or Str) for attacks.

...Greater Improved Ranged is too powerful. First it negates something you gained 4 levels ago (the limit on feats and sneak attack being used at literally point-blank shot), and second it has no limits on the 10ft reach. I will quote the Silver Marches' Peerless Archer with their version of archer reach:

"Threaten- At 8th level a peerless archer gains the ability to threaten nearby areas with her bow as if she were wielding a melee weapon when wearing light armor or no armor. She loses this special ability when fighting in medium or heavy armor. Her bow functions as a reach weapon, threatening anything 10ft away ** but not immediately adjacent to her **. Any attacks of opportunity she receives because she threatens nearby areas are normal ranged attacks and these count against her maximum number of attacks of opportunity per round."


Actually, I can see how it might be too powerful, and I must admit I have never seen this Peerless Archer. In retrospect, I may edit that down a bit; I like the 'beyond-30-feet' limitation enough to keep it permanently. I think I may add the 'Light/No Armour' restriction to that base ability too. Thanks for that. : )

[I added Point blank shot because it is a prerequisite for Precise Shot. Additionally I would like to note that your prereqs are gunning for someone with a fighter BAB, what with a level 6 BAB restriction and a level 6 skill restriction)]

Actually, sort of yes. I wanted a Fighter to be able to get this PrC at 6th or 7th level. However, I decided on BAB 6 so that a Cleric for example could get it at a similar level--8th; if I had increased the BAB to 7, the Cleric would have had to wait till 10th. I may bump up the Craft skill to 10 ranks; I'll think on that...

[I changed the BAB to fighter. This renders the "Ranged BAB" ability unnecessary and seems right with what you are going for. I also got rid of the good fort, they are lightly armored archers, nothing about them suggests hardiness or "great fortitude". Your skill list is obviously weighted towards perception and stealth.]

Said above why I wanted Cleric BAB base, though I like your comments on Fort save. I'll likely include them.

[The prereqs should make sure that someone going for this class has the appropriate weapon(s) at her disposal. Becoming a better ranged specialist doesnt mean you know how all ranged weapons work. Most prcs are going towards this method lately, where you dont actually gain any prof unless it is intrinsic to the prc.]

Good point; done.

Bonus Feat List: Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Far Shot, Rapid Shot, Dodge, Mobility, Ranged Expertise*, Improved Initiative, Run, Skill Focus (any skill on class skill list), Alertness. Others may be added at DMs discretion.]

I dislike the bonus feat route; makes the Archer too similar to a Fighter, and I did want it different.

Finally I would direct you to check out Peerless Archer (FR Silver Marches) if you haven't already. It seems to be the class you want (sans magic arrows).

Never heard of it before now. I will definitely look it up, thanks. However, I don't know that I will get rid of the Magical Arrow Bonuses; I really like them, and they just make sense to me as a good bonus for the Archer. Though I may rename it to something 'Bullseye'ish; maybe Sharpshooter?

Good advice all around. I won't take all of it (of course: )--but I will definitely take some of it. Thanks much!
 

Quinn

First Post
Personally, I'd get rid of the Magic Focus ability and replace it with something else. A lot of Archer PrCs have something similar, and it almost seems obligatory. However, there are few (if any) fighter PrCs that have an ability that says if the fighter is using a normal weapon, he still hits as if it were a magical weapon. Why should the archer? The archer could get a magical bow, and could receive magical arrows. That should be good enough. In fact, because they get items such as these, this ability typically gets nerfed anyways. Also, Archers do a good amount of damage, and can bypass DR as a result, so even if they are without a magical weapon oftentimes they can still do damage.
 

Khaalis

Adventurer
Why not justone of the other Zillion or so Archer PrC's already out there? Why reinvent the wheel?

Here is a small sample list:

Blood Archer (Evil)
Deepwood Sniper (Masters of the Wild)
Longbowman (Librum Equitus)
Master Bowman (Quintessential Fighter)
Military Archer (Librum Equitus)
Order of the Bow Initiate (Sword & Fist)
Peerless Archer (FR: Silver Marches)
Sharpshooter (War)
Sniper (Librum Equitus)
Sniper (Pale Designs)

Besides - archers dont need any more help in being disgusting.
 

trentonjoe

Explorer
Couple points of critique:


1) By negating AOO against archers in melee you pretty much allow archers to always use their bow. If you can always use your bow the fact that your MELEE BAB is lower doesn't really matter does it? Maybe when they are threatened they shouldn't get the Ranged BAB bonus from your class?

2) By giving them up to +5 magic arrows you are ignoring one of the restrictions of missile weapons, amuunition restriction. I would suggest you say they can ignore damage reduction but gain no bonuses to hit poor damage.


When I look at PrC I htink what is this class gaining and what is it loosing.

You are gaining ( ovr a straight fighter)

Better Reflex save
More skill points
The paladin smite ability
and a bunch of rnaged specialabilities

You are losing:

1 hp per level
flexibility of choosing feats ( which is less valuable IMO after 10th or so level)



To me that seems a little too strong. Good luck!
 

Geoff Watson

First Post
Very powerful.

It gets the main benefit of the Arcane Archer (free magic arrows), plus lots of other archery benefits. Great skill list (including the very important Spot and Listen).
The Arcane Archer's other abilities are weak because they can only be used once per day.

Why would any archer not take this class?
The prereqs are really easy to get as well.

Geoff.
 

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