Princes of the Apocalypse: Quest XP

77IM · Apr 18, 2015

I have just uploaded Princes of the Apocalypse: Quest XP to the downloads area.

I really hate awarding XP for killing monsters. Pausing after every combat and adding up all the monster XP and dividing by the number of players is really kind of an annoying speed bump that interrupts game flow. I also don't want to reward players for just killing stuff.

But, milestone XP works poorly in a sandbox game because you never know where the players are going to go next. Like, if each dungeon is a milestone, what if they get 3/4 of the way through 4 dungeons? is that 3 milestones, or none? It seems weird to award a milestone level-up at some random time in the middle of a dungeon.

So I went through Princes of the Apocalypse and broke out all the major accomplishments the PCs might achieve, and assigned XP values to them, as Quests. For example, killing boss monsters, discovering important information, rescuing prisoners, and locating dungeons. Minor encounters and wandering monsters are worth precisely zero XP: instead, the Quest XP is inflated to account for those challenges that are obstacles to completing the quest, including minor encounters and wandering monsters. This way, players who cleverly circumvent monster encounters aren't losing XP for doing so (unless they do a kind of half-assed job, in which case they get half XP).

I made this for my own campaign so it may contain a few weird non-canon entries. But then I figured other people might find it useful so I cleaned it up a bit added some discussion material to the beginning and end. I hope you like it!

You can find the file here in the downloads section. Please use this thread for comments.

lumenbeing · Jun 12, 2015

Nice! This is really useful stuff.

CapnZapp · Jun 18, 2015

77IM said:
I really hate awarding XP for killing monsters. Pausing after every combat and adding up all the monster XP and dividing by the number of players is really kind of an annoying speed bump that interrupts game flow. I also don't want to reward players for just killing stuff.

But, milestone XP works poorly in a sandbox game because you never know where the players are going to go next.

I have observed that, in the end, individual XP tallies (for quests, monsters, etc) are meaningless - the player characters level up at a steady rate anyway. More XP for one choice is followed by less XP after the next. It averages out.

So I've drawn the conclusion to simply drop xp altogether. It's an illusion anyway. Xp is a veneer of objectivity to mask the fact that the party levels up at a rate that is decided: by the adventure module, by the DM, by the DMG.

Let your characters level up every three sessions (or whatever) instead, regardless of where they go or what they do. The end result is about the same, except with no paperwork.

lumenbeing · Jun 18, 2015

CapnZapp said:
I have observed that, in the end, individual XP tallies (for quests, monsters, etc) are meaningless - the player characters level up at a steady rate anyway. More XP for one choice is followed by less XP after the next. It averages out.

So I've drawn the conclusion to simply drop xp altogether. It's an illusion anyway. Xp is a veneer of objectivity to mask the fact that the party levels up at a rate that is decided: by the adventure module, by the DM, by the DMG.

Let your characters level up every three sessions (or whatever) instead, regardless of where they go or what they do. The end result is about the same, except with no paperwork.

I couldn't disagree more. Players love earning xp for overcoming challenges. And it's validation that they are making smart choices. It matters a lot more in a sandbox, like PotA than in a railroady adventure. Players can affect their own rate of advancement by taking on bigger challenges. Why would they bother doing so if they know they are just going to get advanced regardless? Why not just stay in the tavern chatting up wenches?
I get that "the adventure is its own reward" thing, but if you are going to do away with exp you might as well do away with HP too. Just say they are dead every 3 hits "(or whatever)"
Sorry but that sounds like the opposite of fun to me.

77IM · Jun 18, 2015

The whole game is an illusion, though. The DM can say "rocks fall, you die." The players can say, "We're just going to stay at the inn and not go adventuring." Hit points, DCs, spell levels -- all ultimately arbitrary and replaceable with fiat.

We pick the illusions we like, the ones that seem fun. I've tried doing "level up whenever the DM says" and it feels right in some games, but not in D&D. I like earning XP since it provides a nice illusion of accomplishment, and Quest XP seems to maximize the role of player choice. So, that's why I went this route.

designbot · Sep 23, 2015

I just want to say that I think this document is fantastic. Very well thought out. This should be in the book. Thank you!

Have you considered doing something similar for Out of the Abyss? Maybe it wouldn't work—the parts I've trade so far haven't been particularly goal-driven, or clearly optimized for a particular character level.

77IM · Sep 24, 2015

Thanks, I'm glad you like it! I've been using it in my game (players are 6th level now) and it has worked out pretty well.

I'm reading through Out of the Abyss now, and it's kind of an odd adventure structure. The adventure expects PCs to gain a level per chapter, but the chapters are very free-form and most don't contain nearly enough challenges to gain a whole level, even if you do all the things in them. I think they expect you to make up the difference in random encounters as you trudge through the Underdark from point A to point B. On the plus side, there are many instances of quest XP awards throughout the adventure, although they tend to be small (which makes sense if they are merely a supplement to combat XP).

I think if I were running OotA I would make a more free-form XP system where every chapter contains 4-6 discoveries or accomplishments. Each time the players discover or accomplish 5 things, they gain a level. Something like that, to make the advancement table more linear, since the difficulty curve of the adventure seems more time-based than location-based.