Anthropomorphic stats?

This may have already been addressed here, so please forgive my repetition...

Did anyone else find the anthropomorphic stats in the back of Savage Species to be sort of off-kilter? The strength numbers don't seem to make sense in a few examples, and the charisma numbers are likewise higher than you'd expect especially after the text mentions a hefty negative modifier.

I noticed that they made the "Cool" animals have high charisma.. ie Tigers, Leopards.. etc . And the "Uncool" ones had low stats.

It's based on the animals' normal stats. "Cool" animals have higher Charisma scores either because they're more self-aware or because they're more frightening than other animals.

Which is a big part of why they're the "cool" animals in the first place.

bah.. you and your logical reasons.

Yeah, right. Whatever. The numbers are still wack.

What happened to the horse's and mule's strength?

Anthropomorphic Animal Review

Bugaboo, I completely agree with you. These numbers are WACK!

Anyone who compares the anthropomorphic animals from Savage Species with those in the Monster Manual will see many mysterious changes. Sizes change, HD change, ability stats change, and they don't seem to make sense. Maybe these changes are precursors to the new revised edition of the MM, but I hope not.



Anyways, I'll start off with a little history: Back when 3rd Ed. came out our group loved that monsters could have levels and, of course, all of us took monster classes. This didn't balance well, but we enjoyed it. One player played a black panther who could shapechange as a true lycanthrope (at will, no skill check; lycanthope template based on the Tiger with hybrid form). Now the numbers were waaaaaaaaaay off balance by both HD and CR, but this was 3 years ago and before any ECL system. So, I decided to try and bring her character back down to Earth by my lonesome self.

Needless to say, one month and a notebook full of feeble calculations later, I had the creeping suspicion that monster CRs were eyeballed rather than balanced by some logical system. Looking back I think it should have been obvious to me now. Anyone who has tried to determine CRs for new critters knows that balancing a new monster via a point system is still pretty tricky and that there is no 'right' method. Really, just like spell creation, no system is perfect; you just can't cover every imaginable need.


SO, yes:

• Animals have really high stats in the MM with relatively few cool abilities. (This really has helped our Druids in combat.)
  
  Anthropormic animals are absolutely necessary for any lycanthropy system to work in the MM.
  
  Now, the most buff animals (high str, dex & con) have been vastly decreased in abilities, HD, etc. and some of the moderate ones have been left more powerful. (any leopard could kick a lion's A )
  
  Virtually no animal is anthromorphed with an ability score adjustment higher than +8, and some seem to have been nerfed completely. (some +16 and +20 adjustments relegated to +8's)
  
  While these changes may constitute a weakening of an animal's power in hybrid/humaniod form, the changes are not consistent.
  
  It is still possible with the new SS book to balance the old animal stats into monster levels and ECLs. However, this will be difficult as most actual monsters with such high ability adjustments have many corresponding powers besides.

I'm currently hoping that after the revised MM is released in July an errata will be posted with a more sound look at how animals can be anthropomorphed. As for the mental ability scores, most follow in line with the adjustments from the original stat blocks. Most animals simply have very poor charisma.

Actually, the downside is that you're now a biped. See, quadrupeds don't need huge Strengths under the D&D rules to carry heavy loads (see the MM, p10, Strength, under the Abilities header). So the horses really lose when converting to anthropomorphic because they lose size and they lose the multiplier for being quadrupeds.

I think some of what's happening here is that I converted every animal in the MM Appendix I with the template, and didn't edit any out for being too weak, silly, or anything else. I thought completeness was a virtue in this case, but I must admit it exposes some strange corner cases.

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Rich Redman
VP, The Game Mechanics
http://www.thegamemechanics.com
Published work includes d20 Modern, Defenders of the Faith, Deities and Demigods, Monster Manual II, and Dark*Matter Arms & Equipment Guide

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Posted over on Wizards boards

"Some strange corner cases" is putting it mildly.
Likewise, I'm not sure I'm convinced that a critter's strength should be diminished just because he can walk on two legs instead of four. (And where does that leave a bear?)

I was also a little dissapointed wiy=th the Anthro rules in Savage Species. Below are the rules that I use for Anthropormorphic animals in my Sundered Sky campaign

==============================================

Below is the rules that I propose we use to create Wildling Player Characters, as such these rules are phrased just a little differently.

"Wildling" is a template that can be added to any creature with the Animal descriptor - and is Tiny size or Diminutive. This creature becomes a humanoid. This changes the creature in the following ways:

Size: The size of the creature rises by one category with all the stat changes that entails.

Hit Dice: This changes to whatever class the Wildling Character class specifies

Movement: The base movement of the creature becomes 20ft (15ft if the character is Tiny). The creature also keeps whatever other movement modes (and rates of movement) except flight, which is reduced to half the movement rate of the base creature. Obviously whilst flying the character cannot use his arms for any other purpose, such as spellcasting or using weapons.

Armor Class: The Wildling keeps the natural bonus the base creature possessed, if any.


Face/Reach: A Small Wildlings Face and Reach Becomes 5ft x5ft/5ft. A Diminutive Wildlings Face and Reach become 2 1/2x 21/2/ 0ft.


Special Attacks: The Wildling keeps whatever natural attacks that its base form possesses. Damage for these attacks is increased for the changes in size


Special Qualities: The Wildling gains whatever Special Qualities the base creature might have possessed. The effective range of these is 60ft, if applicable. There should be some judicious use of logic in determining these abilities; for example a badger Wildling rather than going berserk as soon as he is damaged might be better served to receive a Will power Saving throw (DC 12) to resist the rage.


Saves: Fortitude or Reflex +2

Abilities: The Difference +/- in relation to a stat of 10 or 11 (to ensure that the bonus is divisible by 2) for instance a Cat Wildling has an adjusted Str 7, Dex of 13, Con 12. This means that the Wildling Character has the following adjustments Str -4, Dex +2, Con +2. A Bat Wildling has adjusted stats Str 5, Dex 13, Con 10; this means the following adjustments Str -6, Dex +2, Con +0.
Wisdom, Intelligence and Charisma never a negative modifier, but if the base stat is higher than 10, then the difference is taken as the modifier to the stat. Our Cat Wildling gains a +2 to his Wisdom, whilst the Bat Wildling gains +4 to her wisdom

Skills: The Wildling gains all the racial bonuses that its base creature possesses.

Feats: The Wildling gains the base creatures feats as bonus feats (usually Weapon Finesse).

Favoured Class: The Player chooses which class is the characters favoured class during character creation. Although the character must meet the prerequisites for this feat before it comes into effect.

Character Variations: The number of animal stats in the various monster collections is understandably limited, so what happens if you want to create a parrot or lark bard? Adapt what material you have and swap the stat bonuses around. In the example above I would take the stats of the Raven (which grants a +4 to Wisdom) and instead Grant that bonus to Charisma instead. Using this method it is very possible to create all sorts of strange animal hybrids.

The anthropomorphic animals are mostly working correctly ruleswise if you read the template, Including size change, ability score changes etc... but I believe that the rhino is wrong, as well as the natural armor bonuses.
That is not to imply that a Large creature with an average Str of 2 is usable.


Of course, Bugaboo knows all of this.