Intelegent creatures immune to mind effects?

Eldorian · Apr 1, 2003

Ever notice that way too many monsters are immune to mind effects? Really sucks for enchanters, sorcerers with enchantment focus, and telepaths, dont it (effects illusions as well, but at least they have shadow magic)? I was doing some thinking... why are intellegent creatures immune to mind effects just because they don't have normal (or physical) brains? I'm talking intelegent constructs, undead, and plants. I mean, they HAVE minds. So why don't spells that affect minds work on them? Think it would ruin the game if I made the only truely immune to mind effect creatures those without minds, like zombies, skeletons, regular old plants, golems and such? I think enchanters and telepaths would thank me.

Perhaps instead of complete immunity, plants, constructs, and undead might have a bonus to save against mind effects, because they have foriegn minds. Some aberations could recieve modifiers as well, because the description of aberation includes alien mindsets.

Anyways, just my thoughts.

Eldorian Antar

Kerrick · Apr 1, 2003

It's not that they don't have normal minds, it's that they have alien mindsets. Let's face it - a plant, even an intelligent one, just doesn't think the same as a human. I'll use the ents from LotR as an example - they think in the long term, and they have little consideration of the fleeting lives of humans. Same thing with undead - they hate living beings; their thoughts are consumed with hatred, anger, hunger, anguish, and tortured images of blood, death, and despair. That's why we have spells like charm and control plants, and charm and control undead.
I rather agree with the part about aberrations gaining a bonus, though - an aboleth, for example, has a slightly different mindset from a human.

Eldorian · Apr 1, 2003

Lemme get this straight... you think the alien mindset of undead, plants, and constructs is so great that they should be immune to mind effects, and that aberations, with their lesser alien mindsets deserve bonuses to saves vs mind effects?

You must really hate enchanters!

But seriously, how alien of a mindset does, for example, a lich or a vampire or indeed most intellegent undead have? They were for the most part former humanoids, and humanoids aren't immune to mind effects. And treants and ents from LoTR seem to me to have very humanlike minds, much more so than say an outsider with an alignment type like a celestial or slaadi.

As for specialty spells that already charm and dominate undead, they have such specialized use that only a wizard would think of taking them, and only if he knew he would be facing undead. They would be most unattractive for a sorcerer or psion. As for plants, control plants gives limited control of plant creatures, and command plants acts as mass charm, but only 8th level. Both are druid/plant domain only, so our would be enchanter couldn't even take them. And what about intellegent constructs?

In addition, I would like to mention that there are monsters that have immunity to mind effects almost as an afterthought. And the spell Mind blank makes the caster immune as well. I see no spells which give complete immunity, or monsters with complete immunity, to other schools of magic. Where is the "immune to all transmutations" monster?

What I really would like to find out is if removing all these immunities to mind effects in some way destroys the game balance, or makes enchanters overpowered. As is, there are situations where enchanters can do NOTHING, which I just don't like. Even with my proposed changes, there are still monsters which are entirely immune to enchantments mindless creatures like some plants, constructs, all vermin, and lesser undead, but at least there are fewer.

Eldorian Antar

Upper_Krust · Apr 3, 2003

Hi all!

I agree with Eldorian, I think that any intelligent creature should be vulnerable to mind affecting effects. The idea that they are 'intelligent' justifies this.

I also think that undead and in popular culture (and I don't just mean quasi-horror like Buffy) certainly show that vampires are subject to fear and influence.

Clay_More · Apr 6, 2003

I agree. I think its reasonable that non-thinking undead are not subject to mind-influencing, as they truly have no minds, but are merely the automatons controlled by their creator, brought to life by negative energy.
Yet, Vampires and Liches have human minds. Even though they undergo some changes, they dont think of blood and gore all the time. Both are afraid of dying, both plan ahead, both have ideas and concepts like any humanoid.
I think, an interesting variant for some treefolk, might be that since they have so slow minds, it takes a couple of rounds before a mind influencing spell takes effect. For example, a Treant might take 1d6 rounds before it reacts to a mind-influencing spell, simply because the Enchanted hasn't worked his way through the ponderous and slow mind of the tree.

Intelegent creatures immune to mind effects?

Eldorian

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Kerrick

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Eldorian

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Upper_Krust

Hero

Clay_More

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