D&D 5E Warlording the fighter

fuindordm · Jul 2, 2015

Spinning off from another thread, what sort of tweaks to the fighter class would support the Warlord play style? The purpose of this thread is to propose and critique minor variations on the fighter that would help.

Personally, one player in my home game has a battlemaster fighter with the Parry, Commander's Strike, and Rally (heal ally--I might be misrecalling the name). He also has the mobility feat and does a more than adequate job bossing the rest of the party around while roaming around the outskirts of the battle getting his licks in.

Here are my two thoughts:

A "Tactician" fighting style that grants your allies advantage on attack rolls if you are adjacent to their target. This gives the player an incentive to move through the combats to support weaker fighters. I think that advantage should not apply to the fighter, because the style can grant advantage to multiple allies.

A possible Warlord subclass wouldn't be very different at all from the battlemaster subclass. However, we could consider replacing a couple of subclass features with the following:

"Get Back In There!" -- You can give your Action Surge to an ally who can hear or see you, unless they already used Action Surge in this battle. The ally can take the bonus action on your turn.

(capstone) "Desperate Charge" -- Spend your Action Surge. Each ally who can hear or see you can immediately take an Attack, Dash, or Withdraw action.

Obryn · Jul 2, 2015

I don't think the Fighter chassis is any more suitable for a full-featured Warlord than it would be for Rangers or Paladins, and for similar reasons.

The main criteria a Warlord needs to fit, imo, is that it works as a Cleric (or Bard) replacement. Just like you don't give Clerics or Bards action surge/second wind/multiple attacks, you shouldn't give them to a Warlord.

Yeah, a Battlemaster has those warlordish maneuvers. But that's basically the Eldritch Knight approach. You're still mostly a Fighter.

I'm A Banana · Jul 2, 2015

Obryn said:
The main criteria a Warlord needs to fit, imo, is that it works as a Cleric (or Bard) replacement. Just like you don't give Clerics or Bards action surge/second wind/multiple attacks, you shouldn't give them to a Warlord.

What happens if we just scratch out the word temporary in the Rally maneuver? In what way would that character not work as a "party healer"? What's it still lacking?

Imaro · Jul 2, 2015

I'm curious... since the fighter gets extra feats... why doesn't the Healer feat satisfy the criteria for healing for a warlord? Yes it requires a healer kit, but spells require components so it seems pretty fair. It even scales according to hit dice. I mean if necessary couldn't we just give it to him for free?

Obryn · Jul 2, 2015

Kamikaze Midget said:
What happens if we just scratch out the word temporary in the Rally maneuver? In what way would that character not work as a "party healer"? What's it still lacking?

Even if you scratched out "temporary," the scaling on Rally is pretty terrible.

As I said in the other thread, the main bits missing are (1) Something that lets you "warlord" full-time, enabling and/or buffing, much like Cantrips let a caster Cleric or Wizard full-time. And (2) More potent higher-level effects; all the Maneuvers are balanced for a 1st level character with some scaling in magnitude and frequency but nothing else.

fuindordm · Jul 2, 2015

I guess the problem when comparing to the 4E warlord is that the battlemaster can't deliver as much healing as a cleric. But as a matter of personal taste, I would prefer if the warlord could still function as an effective fighter by building on the fighter chassis. I don't think the warlord should be capable of healing effects with large numbers of dice, however.

I still think it's within the realm of a subclass; give them the same choice of maneuvers, but instead of granting extra damage to the battlemaster have them grant extra HP or damage to allies, depending on the maneuver, and key off of Int or Cha, depending on the maneuver. I think that to better keep a party alive, superiority dice to heal allies should be boosted by the Cha modifier.

E.G.

Respite: Attack an opponent threatening an ally. Whether you hit or miss, your target has disadvantage on attack rolls against the ally on its next turn, and your ally gains one superiority die + Cha bonus in HP.

Tactical Strike: As your action, you identify a high-value target and direct your allies to focus fire. Attack the target. All your allies add one superiority die + Int bonus to their first attack roll against that target on their next turn.

fuindordm · Jul 2, 2015

Obryn said:
Even if you scratched out "temporary," the scaling on Rally is pretty terrible.

As I said in the other thread, the main bits missing are (1) Something that lets you "warlord" full-time, enabling and/or buffing, much like Cantrips let a caster Cleric or Wizard full-time. And (2) More potent higher-level effects; all the Maneuvers are balanced for a 1st level character with some scaling in magnitude and frequency but nothing else.

Agreed. I proposed the new fighting style as one possible way for warlords to do their thing nearly every turn. It might even be too powerful.

Do you have some specific suggestions? Do you think the warlord needs something like a cantrip, or a class ability that adds a temp HP rider to their basic attack?

Gimul · Jul 2, 2015

The Tactician fighting style, as listed, is overpowered; perhaps instead it could allow the warlord to grant advantage (or a bless style d4) to a single ally as a bonus action.

The desperate charge feature seems grossly overpowered; instead of granting an attack action, limit it to a bonus attack (the difference being an attack action includes extra attack, and possibly some spells/cantrips).

Rally and healer feat are nice, but scale poorly (if expected to support a full healer build).

I've found the protection fighting style, Shield Mastery (or heavy armor master) feat, and martial adept feat combination does a decent job emulating the frontline, lead by example type warlord. The healing is lacking; but in a grittier campaign with a DM that is accounting for the reduced party access to healing the "feel" is right.

The lazy and skirmishing style warlords are more difficult to emulate.

P.S. Also, don't overlook the inspirational leader feat.

MoonSong · Jul 2, 2015

I've got many ideas on how to make it work. But I've gotta remain tightlipped about it.

Sacrosanct · Jul 2, 2015

There was a thread about 6 months ago or so where there were several warlord variants. I'll try to look for it. For example, one variant I had done was a subclass of the fighter who had superiority dice like the BM, but the maneuvers were more around inspiration and rallying. Using superiority dice to reduce damage taken by an ally, increase saving throws, healing, etc.

Ah, here we go:

Sacrosanct said:
If I were to try to do a warlord in 5e, I'd probably do it like this. There are really what? Two versions of warlord? Inspiring and Tactical? I think the BM does a pretty good job covering the tactical part, so I'd create a new Inspiring Warlord subclass modeled similar to the battlemaster. Fewer maneuvers, but the PC knows them all.

Combat Leader
You and each ally within 50ft who can hear you gain a +1 initiative bonus.

Inspiring Leadership
Leadership Dice: You have four leadership dice, which are d8. You can use inspiring leadership dice on any Inspiring Action below. You know all of the Inspiring Actions. You regain leadership dice upon completion of a short or long rest.
You gain another leadership dice at 7th level, and another at 15th level. Upon reaching 10th level, these dice become d10s, and at 18th level, d12s.

Maneuver save DC = 8 + your prof bonus + CHA bonus

Battlefield Leadership
Starting at 7th level , you and any ally within 50ft gains a +1 bonus to any saving throw.

War Leader
Starting at 15th level, if you roll initiative and do not have any leadership dice remaining, you regain one leadership dice.

Inspiring Actions

Make the Save: Roll one leadership dice. You or any ally within 50ft can take a reaction when forced to make a saving throw. Add the result of the leadership dice to that save.

Back in the Fight: Roll any number of leadership dice remaining. As a bonus action, add the result of the die roll + your CHA bonus as temporary hit points to yourself or any ally within 50ft.

Lessening the Blow: Whenever an ally within 50ft who can hear you is attacked by an opponent, spend a leadership dice as a reaction. The damage the ally suffers will be reduced by the result of your die roll.

Taking Advantage: Whenever an ally within 50ft who can hear you makes an attack of opportunity, you may roll one leadership dice and that ally will add the result to his or her attack roll.

Battlefield Logistics: Roll any number of remaining leadership dice. As a bonus action, add the result to the movement rate of you or any ally within 50ft who can hear you until the start of your or their next turn.