The Chronicles of Narcissist

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Umbran

Mod Squad
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I dunno. What happened to your family is terrible.

I was not related to anyone in the gulags, thank goodness. My grandfather that was at risk took flight to America before the Soviets got him...

To imagine that a man could be thrown in jail for being a Boy Scout leader. Sheesh.

That does not mean Trump's new blacklisting is anywhere near the same thing. That'd be like using a Holocaust example on something far less than 6 million people being killed.

Well, I'm not saying that the two are equivalent. I'm just noting the *logic*. Government restriction due to what you say is censorship. What my family friends went through was *worse* censorship (and more), but they're both still censorship.

Umbran's family lost the right to speak in their own country and were imprisoned in their own country for what they said. This was done to them by their own leaders.

Well, actually, if you asked them they'd have said they what was done to them was by a foreign power - they did not recognize the authority of the Soviet government (which didn't give the country much choice when it decided a mutual protection treaty meant, "we move in and never leave"). That lack of recognition is what was getting them thrown in the gulag :)
 

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Ryujin

Legend
On a similar note, because of my age I went to school with a fair number of Czechoslovakian kids whose families had fled ahead of the tanks and eventually found homes in the Toronto area. A former employer did the same and a now deceased friend went back to the Czech Republic, perhaps 10 years ago, to try and reacquire his family's former factories, and homes.
 

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amerigoV

Guest
Figure I would get this in before the axe

bloom-county-republican-debates.png
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Censorship is the government exercising control over the content of speech- either by modifying or eliminating said content. There are currently a small set of offenses that one could loosely call censorship that are criminally and/or civilly actionable, or are otherwise not protected: incitement, obscenity, child pornography, false statements of fact, "fighting words", unauthorized use of speech owned by others, speech under certain special circumstances (gov't as employer, regulator, educator, jailer, controller of military) and a few others. Fall into one of those categories, and you'll find your liberty limited.

But again, Trump's messages- his speech- are not being prevented from being disseminated. The only thing that may happen is that he may be denied personal entry into the UK. It may seem a fine distinction, but it is perfectly legal. To be perfectly clear: denying his entry into the country does not meet the legal definition of censorship. (FWIW, we could do likewise to an immigrant under the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952, and others.)

The situation faced by the people in gulags is distinguishable: by controlling the persons, the Soviet government also controlled dissemination of their ability to communicate. Where they were jailed effectively silenced & deafened them. That is identical to what happens to prisoners in the USA- their mail is searched and edited, their access to the outside world is curtailed to monitored phone calls and- for some- Internet access. None are allowed cell phones, which are contraband in EVERY jail in the US. The government controls every inmate's ability to speak and to hear speech, by time, place, content and method. Settled law: 100% legal.

Trump, in contrast, is not being threatened with anything beyond being divested of personal entry to the UK. The interference with his speech is de minimis- the only thing he won't be able to do is tell people what he thinks in person. His Twitter account, his Facebook page, his campaign's website- every outlet available EXCEPT in-person communication is open to him, and no one has suggested (AFAIK) that those outlets be edited or blocked within the UK. And most of the outlets in question are unconnected to his wealth- any of us may have a Facebook or Twitter account, and websites can be erected by anyone for pocket change.

His wealth DOES mean he might have outlets most wouldn't- like TV/radio spots, targeted mailing of flyers, postcards and letters, ads in papers & magazines. And if the government edited THOSE, then the might be a case for cries of censorship. But, again AFAIK, nobody has proposed restricting his access to paid outlets for disseminating his message.
 
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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Censorship is the government exercising control over the content of speech- either by modifying or eliminating said content. There are currently a small set of offenses that one could loosely call censorship that are criminally and/or civilly actionable, or are otherwise not protected: incitement, obscenity, child pornography, false statements of fact, "fighting words", unauthorized use of speech owned by others, speech under certain special circumstances (gov't as employer, regulator, educator, jailer, controller of military) and a few others. Fall into one of those categories, and you'll find your liberty limited.

But again, Trump's messages- his speech- are not being prevented from being disseminated. The only thing that may happen is that he may be denied personal entry into the UK. It may seem a fine distinction, but it is perfectly legal. To be perfectly clear: denying his entry into the country does not meet the legal definition of censorship. (FWIW, we could do likewise to an immigrant under the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952, and others.)

The situation faced by the people in gulags is distinguishable: by controlling the persons, the Soviet government also controlled dissemination of their ability to communicate. Where they were jailed effectively silenced & deafened them. That is identical to what happens to prisoners in the USA- their mail is searched and edited, their access to the outside world is curtailed to monitored phone calls and- for some- Internet access. None are allowed cell phones, which are contraband in EVERY jail in the US. The government controls every inmate's ability to speak and to hear speech, by time, place, content and method. Settled law: 100% legal.

Trump, in contrast, is not being threatened with anything beyond being divested of personal entry to the UK. The interference with his speech is de minimis- the only thing he won't be able to do is tell people what he thinks in person. His Twitter account, his Facebook page, his campaign's website- every outlet available EXCEPT in-person communication is open to him, and no one has suggested (AFAIK) that those outlets be edited or blocked within the UK. And most of the outlets in question are unconnected to his wealth- any of us may have a Facebook or Twitter account, and websites can be erected by anyone for pocket change.

His wealth DOES mean he might have outlets most wouldn't- like TV/radio spots, targeted mailing of flyers, postcards and letters, ads in papers & magazines. And if the government edited THOSE, then the might be a case for cries of censorship. But, again AFAIK, nobody has proposed restricting his access to paid outlets for disseminating his message.
No one's claimed it's not legal. I've said it's perfectly legal a number of times. It is, however, censorship. If you forbid a venue based on the content of the speech, it's censorship. It doesn't matter a lick if there are other venues. This is like saying that you can ban Coke because there's milk, and they're both drinks so it's not like you're having anything taken from you -- you can still drink, right?

You're making a few of the classic censor's arguments -- it's not that bad, it's only one venue, it doesn't really hurt him. The thing is, it's still censorship.

Is not a common refrain: you may say what you like, but I don't have to give you the soapbox
Darn tootin'. But you can't take the soapbox away, either.

E2A: What I mean is that no one is required to assist you in getting out your speech. No one has to offer to print you, for instance. You have no right to make others listen or spread your message. That's not censorship.

However, if you take action to prevent the message or restrict the venue for that message, that's censorship. There are cases where it's deemed appropriate, and cases where it's not, and, sometimes, cases where it's unclear. But it's all still censorship.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Trump, in contrast, is not being threatened with anything beyond being divested of personal entry to the UK. The interference with his speech is de minimis- the only thing he won't be able to do is tell people what he thinks in person. His Twitter account, his Facebook page, his campaign's website- every outlet available EXCEPT in-person communication is open to him, and no one has suggested (AFAIK) that those outlets be edited or blocked within the UK. And most of the outlets in question are unconnected to his wealth- any of us may have a Facebook or Twitter account, and websites can be erected by anyone for pocket change.

Oh, please Danny, don't pretend that Trump is not a special case in his ability to get his message heard. It may be "de minimis" for Trump, but wouldn't be for most people. So, I ask again, is the question of whether a thing effectively censorship to be determined by one's personal ability to work around the measure?

(Just in case any of you ever thougth that Danny and I didn't disagree on things)
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Oh, please Danny, don't pretend that Trump is not a special case in his ability to get his message heard. It may be "de minimis" for Trump, but wouldn't be for most people. So, I ask again, is the question of whether a thing effectively censorship to be determined by one's personal ability to work around the measure?

(Just in case any of you ever thougth that Danny and I didn't disagree on things)

It's probably less actual disagreeing with you rather than resistance to agreeing with me.
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
I agree. It's a shame that we get only people who would be horrible Presidents to choose from. 16 years of the worst Presidents in US history and it looks like we're going to have 4-8 more with Hillary.

Meh, it's hard to do worse than Buchanan. When several states actually secede from the union under your watch, that's pretty bad.

Also, it might help us have better presidential governance if we didn't arbitrarily declare that the people who are good at the job can't keep doing it simply because they've already done it twice. I mean, you don't need the two term limit to get rid of bad presidents: an election should do that (provided his/her opponent isn't worse) and we have those every four years. The two term limit really just prevents good presidents from being able to continue to serve.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
No one's claimed it's not legal. I've said it's perfectly legal a number of times. It is, however, censorship.
Nope, not in the eyes of the law.

If you forbid a venue based on the content of the speech, it's censorship. It doesn't matter a lick if there are other venues. This is like saying that you can ban Coke because there's milk, and they're both drinks so it's not like you're having anything taken from you -- you can still drink, right?
And

Oh, please Danny, don't pretend that Trump is not a special case in his ability to get his message heard. It may be "de minimis" for Trump, but wouldn't be for most people. So, I ask again, is the question of whether a thing effectively censorship to be determined by one's personal ability to work around the measure?

It is well established law that reasonable time, place and manner (TPM) restrictions are legal, but they have boundaries. The oft cited illegality of shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater is one obvious example.

Several SCOTUS cases have held that no one may "insist upon a street meeting in the middle of Times Square at the rush hour as a form of freedom of speech" (Cox v. Louisiana, 379 U.S. 536, 85 S. Ct. 453, 13 L. Ed. 2d 471 [1965])

Outside of situations like that, the standard usually applied is that the government may impose reasonable TPM restrictions on speech only by showing "significant" or "important" reasons.

From http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Time,+Place,+and+Manner+Restrictions
All TPM restrictions must provide speakers with alternative channels for communicating ideas or disseminating information. Unlike millionaire moguls and corporate giants, the average person on the street does not commonly communicate through the mass media. Most people do not hold press conferences, and if they did, few members of the media would attend. Instead, the great bulk of communication takes place through the circulation of leaflets, hand-bills, and pamphlets, which most people can distribute and read in a cheap and efficient manner. As a result, courts are generally sensitive to protecting these modes of communication, and TPM restrictions limiting their distribution usually founder.

The Internet, however, has fast become an easy alternative for mass distributing information. As such, it is often difficult to apply TPM restrictions. For example, politicians use bulk E-Mail as a quick way to reach thousands, even millions, of their constituents. Called "political spam," this method of campaigning has both advocates and detractors. Opponents claim that unsolicited political e-mails are an invasion of privacy. As precedence, they point to the Eighth Circuit ruling in Van Bergen v. Minnesota, 59 F.3d 1541 (1995), which upheld a Minnesota state law prohibiting candidates from using a device that automatically dialed residential telephone numbers and played a prerecorded political campaign message. According to the court, "the telephone system is a private channel of communication," and the Minnesota law rightfully placed restrictions on time, manner, and place of speech.

As you rightly point out- and I expressly stated- Trump has more means to get his message out than Joe Citizen. But as the above quoted section illustrates,

1) the existence of alternative channels for the speaker's message is part of the legal test for whether a restriction will be upheld, and

2) the rise of low-cost Internet communications has made TPM restrictions de minimis for most speakers. Trump and those like him may indeed have access to paid media that 99.99% of people can't touch, but- like the leaflets, hand-bills, and pamphlets- Facebook, Twitter, etc. provide a worldwide audience, and will likewise be protected in the same manner by the courts. (As noted, there have been ZERO discussions about restricting Britons' access to Trump's online resources, merely restricting their ability to bask in his presence.)

Despite our lack of financial resources (compared to a billionaire), if you or I were scheduled to give a talk in the UK, but, Trumpishly, were barred physical entry (and nothing else) to the country, odds are good that the talk's potential addressees could still receive my message via online postings (Facebook and other social media), or even via the relatively ancient method of giving my email address to the disappointed attendees...or vice versa for a mass mailing. The talk could be posted entirely on YouTube. The hosts could set up a Skype appearance, which would even allow for audience Q & A.

You haven't been censored: your message is still intact, it still reaches its intended audience- depending on method used- on time or even earlier.

The only difference is you aren't in the country.





(FWIW, Umbran, you know that I'm really sticking to the legal definitions of censorship. What I'm experiencing in pushback is, I think, akin to what happens when you tell someone what they're calling a star is actually a galaxy...and they say, "No, it's a star.")
 
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